Breaking Down the Lead Magnet That Creates Personalized Assets and Closes Deals with Josh Carter

[Music]

Welcome to another episode of Stack and

Scale. I am Brandon Ringer and today I'm

sitting down with my buddy Josh Carter

who is the VP of revenue operations at

Pavilion. And if you don't know,

Pavilion is the number one community for

GTM leaders and one that I've personally

found a lot of value in. I've been a

member for 5 and a half years now at

this point. And Josh today walks us

through a workflow that he built. It's

actually a lead magnet tool that not

only helps attract leads for your

business, but also it's a it's a great

sales enablement tool. So, I feel like

this one is one that one will get you

points with your sales reps to actually

get uh to move deals along further and

then two, send them qualified leads. And

this is one that all marketers can use.

And Josh is one of those another one of

those real technical hands-on guys. And

you can tell he's been playing around

with AI a lot. He's been building AI.

He's been building with AI a lot. And

he's just another one of those real

sharp dudes that we're going to learn a

lot from in this episode. So without

further ado, here's my conversation with

Josh Carter. Josh, welcome to the show.

>> What's up, Brandon? How you doing?

>> Oh, can't complain. Just another Just

another Thursday. Just another Thursday,

you know, working hard.

>> Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on the

show on on stack and scale. I was

singing a stack and scale song earlier.

Um, and I it was in the tune of Dragon

Tales, which is like an old school

older, not old school, it's like an

older cartoon. It's like,

>> wait, what is it called?

>> Dragon Tales. The song goes Dragon

Tales. Dragon Tales. So then in my head,

I was like, stacking scales, stacking

scales. And um,

>> those notes, man.

I love it. I love it. Yeah, we need we

need to get uh some AI to change our

intro song to

Dragon Tales Stack and Scale.

>> Something like that, man.

>> All right. So, uh tell the audience what

you're going to show uh today.

>> All right. So, what we're going to stack

and scale today is a customized business

case for somebody to go to their boss or

HR team to convince them to pay for a

pavilion membership. So, how this all

kind of came about is we uh were getting

this request and I'm I'm Josh Carter. I

run RevOps at Pavilion. I lead our

membership sales team as well. Wear a

lot of hats. Uh and one of the

challenges that we had is uh we had a

lot of our our pavilion members were the

largest professional community of of go

to market leaders uh in the world and

about half our members get their company

to pay for their membership because it's

you know a continuing education

professional development type um motion

for them. So,

what we ended up getting a asked a bunch

is, hey, I need to make uh a business

case or I need to make some some sort of

a a justification for using my learning

and development budget on a pavilion

membership. And we were having to kind

of customize these these uh business

cases for people. And it got to the

point where I realized that it's it

actually could be a lead magnet or a way

to accelerate pipeline if we just

generated it for them or gave them the

power to generate one with AI. And so

what this ended up turning into is a

what I call a reimbursement tool where

you fill out the form and then out it

out the output is using AI and we're

going to dig into how it actually works.

But the output is this is for Brandon uh

your LinkedIn profile. It scrapes your

LinkedIn profile, references everything

that Pavilion does specifically for you

as a marketing leader, uh, and then

shares relevant benefits, uh, and then

shares an email template at the bottom.

So, we also send

>> Now I just go to my manager and

copy paste and boom, I've got my

Pavilion membership paid.

>> Exactly. and our conversion rates of

people who use this. I mean, it's

there's also some some bias also. If

you're using this, it's likely that you

do have L & D budget or learning and

development budget.

>> Um, but we did notice that the when

people use this tool, the conversion

rate more than doubles.

>> Um, and that what that tells me is that

you need to make it and the what the I

know a lot of people listening to this

like some are in B2B SAS, some are in

like consulting. Um, this is more of

like a membership motion. Um, but

regardless, my goal is to make it as

easy as possible for the customer to

buy. And I was thinking to myself, well,

what is one of the biggest pain points

the customers have when they do want to

buy? The budget is there. They just need

to make a case for it. And so, I started

working backwards from that. Um, I used

a tool called Copy AI to uh,

essentially, we'll dig into it, but

prompt chain, a series of prompts to

ultimately take your LinkedIn profile,

Brandon, and turn it into this

beautiful, I'll call it beautiful, this

just beautiful email template you can

take to your boss. And what what we're

going to show today, I think, could be

also, Brandon, like used for other types

of lead magnet use cases.

>> Totally. you know, no matter what kind

of company you you you operate in.

>> Yeah, 100% love it. And I I mean I I did

something similar to this 10 years ago

at this point, but uh basically I wasn't

really even using the AI. It was pretty

basic, but it was spitting out cold

email templates that people can now use

uh for prospects. But in order for us to

build something like that, we were

paying an agency gosh, I I $18,000 or

something like this to custom build

something. But now with the tools that

we have available, I don't have to go to

my developer team. I don't have to spend

crazy amounts on an agency to help me

implement something like this. Like

that's that's what I love about AI these

days and and the tools these days.

>> Dude, you know what that reminds me of?

The HubSpot website grader.

>> Oh, totally. Yeah. the OG lead magnet.

>> Yes. Yes. Where But now you could build

that like you could build a website

greater specific to your tech stack.

Like if like I don't know. I'm just

thinking like if I were a lead

>> or if I were a chatbot tool, right? Like

you could put in your your website. It

could the AI could scrape the website,

identify your language, language

improvements for language, a chatbot

that you have, what kind of chatbot it

is, and where there's gaps versus your

technology. I mean, there's so many

things that you can do now with AI. But

until I discovered Copy AI, which they

recently got acquired by Fullcast, there

really wasn't an easy way to make like a

publicly a like almost like a form

submission

>> to to like copy

uh it like all in one baked into the

product. But I mean, you could build

this out with development support, but I

honestly haven't found anything that's

just a clean form tool that just does a

delay, does a bunch of AI steps, and

then delivers an AI response like like

the equivalent of probably what BuzzFeed

uses for their quizzes, you know?

>> Sure. Sure. Yeah. Buzzfeed for B2B.

>> Exactly. Buzzfeed. Maybe this is a

product idea, Brandon.

>> Yeah. There you go.

>> B2B feed. H something like that. Um, do

you want to do you want to dig in?

>> Let's do it. Hell yeah.

>> Cool. All right. So, let's kind of take

a step back as to like what we're asking

for here. So, we we realized that like

in order to deliver personalized

recommendations, we needed really two

kind of key things. We needed one, their

LinkedIn profile, obviously. Um, that

allows me to see everything about

Brandon, what he does, his history, his

background, what he cares about. Then

notes. Um, notes. This is basically how

Pavilion can make you better in your

current role.

>> I want to make sure we keep the voice of

the customer live. So, you know, Brandon

comes in here, puts his his name in

here, and Brandon, how can Pavilion make

you better in your current role?

>> I mean, it's it's connecting me with

other smart marketing leaders so that I

can deliver more performance for my my

fractional clients.

All right, cool.

I'm just going to put my email in here.

>> Yeah, there you go.

>> Cool. So, when I click generate now,

what that's going to do is that's going

to fire

in this table. You'll see right here

that there's a new row that's getting

added. It's processing. So, what it's

doing right now, um,

>> and you're in you're in Copy AI right

now.

>> I am in Copy AI right now. Um, you could

build something similar to this if you

have make.com or Zapier. You could build

something similar to this in the

background and have the output like be

sent in an email, which is what we also

do. But like copy AI is really cool

because I could actually like create a

form experience where like I can

literally just like say as the form and

like what do I want to show in the

output. So, what's cool about copy is

like it does it all in like that same I

frame on my website.

>> Yeah.

>> But you could do this exact motion

inside of like make.com, Zapier, uh,

Clay, like anything that allows you to

chain a few prompts together, you could

do this in. So, hopefully this kind of

gives you some inspiration as to how you

might want to want to do this. Um,

>> I do like how it's just an easy frame

right onto the website. Me too, man. It

just makes it so easy.

>> Yeah.

So I think think what what what I'm

going to walk through now and I'm going

to for those listening I'm going to try

to like explain the thought process

because a big piece of what I focused on

for this workflow and the reason why it

works so well is the is the order of

operations like the order at which I

conducted my AI prompt chaining so to

speak.

>> Yeah. So the first thing that we do is

in order for the workflow to fire it

whatever we simp we click submit. We get

the LinkedIn profile. We get his notes

as to like how Pavilion will make him

better in his role and then we get his

email. So from there all I do is scrape

the LinkedIn profile. Again going back

to other tools you could use Clay to do

this. You could use Zapier. You could

use anything.

>> Yeah. You just add a node and then tell

it what to do.

>> Exactly. Um then the next step is like

if our ultimate outcome is to provide a

business case the first thing I need to

probably figure out is like what is

Brandon's prior what are Brandon's

priorities.

>> So this is the beauty of like of of this

concept of prompt painting.

So, like instead of me going into chat

GPT and saying, "Here's everything I

know about Brandon, can you can you just

like generate an email email template?"

No, that is not going to give you a good

reply. What's going to get you a good

reply is you take it step by step.

>> So, we take it step by step here. And

first thing I ask is uh or that that we

prompt for AI is what's what's the goal

of this person in their role. So, just

literally the output of this is what is

what is what is your role goal? In fact,

I'm going to just go ahead and put in

this as a test. Um, so that way

we can actually like run through each of

these prompts side by side.

So, we'll let this rock and roll. Let me

just zoom out a little bit. Cool. So,

you'll see the first thing is first is

we're going to identify the roll goals.

It's going to populate in just a couple

minutes. And then based on the RO goals,

the next node in here is connecting

Pavilion's features to your specific

role. So first thing I I and again going

back to like the best practices for AI,

I found is taking it one step at a time

to build to almost like have the

building blocks of like of of what

you're trying to accomplish. You need to

take it into like small pieces. And so

we decided that if we start with just

identifying the role goals and then

connecting pavilion's features to the

role then what I can do is come up to

the third section which is literally

just a list of relevant benefits. Um I

the reason why you see list of relevant

benefits in HTML, a list of relevant

benefits regular is I have a list of

relevant benefits that um I need to be

in HTML format for an email format and

then the other is plain text for any

plain text delivery. That's a little bit

in the weeds, but the point is I got

Brandon scraped profile. It literally is

just the equivalent of me copy pasting

your profile. I did not know that you

were doing sports medicine

>> way back in the day. Yep.

>> And nutrition.

>> Animal training. Nutrition. Yeah. That

that was my life before tech.

>> And now you're exercising your brain.

>> Yeah. Exactly.

>> Well, I mean, I guess you were then

trying to get people to change their

diet and their uh exercise routine.

>> Yeah. I don't know. That's harder.

Getting people to buy stuff or getting

people to change their diet and and

exercise routines.

>> Oh my gosh. So, here's your role goals.

Uh

focused on democratizing AI adoption

with actionable workflows for B2B

marketers.

>> Yeah, that that's very much what I'm

doing for stack and scale. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Beautiful. So, that's your goal. So, the

next step is connecting Pavilion's

futures to the role. So then we just the

prompt is essentially like here's

everything about pavilion. Uh based on

his goal, what are the top kind of

things that that we should be focused on

here? So you can see that it's it it it

created this hugely robust document. I

wouldn't I mean this is cool, but I'm

not going to this is this should never

be the final output. It's

>> it's a lot.

>> It's AI. It's like goal pavilion

solution.

>> Yeah. Yeah. There solution.

>> But that's what I want. Like that's what

I want cuz that what that does

>> the next step.

>> Exactly dude. But the beauty of that is

that like because I was able to like

tell you uh you know um or get this

initial like goal features then I can

then uh take the like massive amount of

text that is generated and then use AI

to synthesize what's actually relevant.

So, what's cool is I'm like, "Okay, what

is every possible goal that could that

that Brandon Brandon uh that could be

accomplished by Pavilion?" Uh, and then

let's synthesize that to just a list of

relevant benefits. And so, that's the

HTML version. Let me go down to the

actual like text version.

>> So, yeah, it even changes it into first

person. So connects me with peer

expertise.

Nice. I like that.

>> Exactly. Now you don't have a I mean you

don't have a you work for yourself. You

don't have a boss. So it's like

>> uh Yeah. Imagine that there is some some

uh

>> we'll say we'll say your wife you're

trying to convince your wife to join

Pavilion. This is it.

>> Um

>> Yeah. The real boss. Exactly.

>> Exactly. Um and then we go into here and

we write the business case. Um and so

it's pretty straightforward. It's just

like hey um what is uh yeah what's based

on the list of relevant benefits please

write this business case in this format.

This is pretty robust again going back

for um going back to what I mentioned

before about prompt chaining is I always

like to have to start big with AI and

then use AI to go smaller. So, it's

like, "Hey, I got this massive freaking

email. This is probably good." Like, if

I sent this to you, you'd be like, "This

is chill. I like it, but

>> I want to create another uh I want to

create another step to synthesize it

down." So, what I did after that is

said "Hey

take this email template, rewrite this

business case in a friendly and

personable tone, keep sentences

relatively short, no exclamations, and

don't repeat yourself." So, this is

where I spent a lot of my time is like,

okay, I had the AI do all the heavy

lifting of

giving Brandon like every single

possible thing. Now, I need to use AI to

synthesize it down a little bit more.

And I think this is where a lot of

people get hung up when they get pissed

off at AI is they don't take an extra

step. Have you seen that?

>> Oh, dude. Well, 100%. Well, I think

that's why a lot of tools out there have

like

>> Yeah. I I mean clay is the one I use all

the time, but it's like built with AI

and they also have like sculptor now. So

you can you can take very simple prompts

and then AI will build out the full

prompt for you that then spits it into

here. You know, I I mean, as you were

going through this, my mind was like, I

wouldn't be surprised if copy AI had or

someone should go create it like a

custom GPT that you anyone can go access

on the GPT store and then say, all

right, take this and turn it into

something I can now put into copy AI as

a full prompt.

>> Yeah.

>> But like people get lazy. It's just like

they that's where the term AI slop comes

in, right? where it's like I just want

to give it two sentences and I don't

want to give it the full context and I

don't want to give it examples and I

don't want it to uh I don't want to give

it the exact output you know that I want

and then they get sloppy then they're

they ship something that's halfass and

halfbaked and then they get mad at AI

and they're like this doesn't work it's

all

>> yeah exactly they're not taking the time

to do it right

>> yeah do you ever use um whisper flow the

like voiceto text transcriber

Yeah. So, I I I use Super Whisper,

>> but yes, same exact thing,

>> dude. So, what I do, this is just like

kind of nerd dumb, but if you're

watching this, what I do is I like I and

I'll just show what I do right now to

build prompts is like I think about what

I want and I write and I say it out. So,

all I would do is just hold in the hold

down the Fn key and be like, "Oh, I need

to generate the most beautiful email

template of all time based upon the

benefits of Pavilion and all the

information that I have about the

prospect. Keep it concise. Keep it

brief. Do your thing." And I created a

prompt right here. And um this is not a

good prompt. This is me talking through

my prompt. But

>> what I would then do is I would copy

this and tell AI to rewrite this in a

beautiful prompt format.

>> Exactly.

>> And I use a tool on my Mac called

Raycast. It allows you to do extensions

for AI. So what I do is I hold command

shift R

and it re and it's a it's a prompts that

rewrites a prompt. So basically I have a

series of prompts in hotkeys. One of

them is like rewriting a text in

Pavilion's brand voice. There's a series

of prompts that I you There's a series

of prompts that I have as hotkeys and

all I do is highlight the text and have

it do what I want it to do.

>> Dude, that's a Okay. What is it called?

Raycast.

>> Called raycast. It's so crazy. Um

>> I love that.

>> I'll show now. Now I feel like people

are going to be like, "What is Raycast?"

Well,

>> dude, I'm all about like shortcuts, hot

keys, like hot corners on my on my

desktop like

>> Okay, there you go.

>> It's insane. So, basically, there's like

you can set AI commands that you want.

And so, like I've got like explain this

in simple terms is if I were to get kind

of annoyed at somebody's Slack message

and it's too verbose, I just do command

uh command shift E explain Nice.

>> If I'm writing some code, I do, you

know, command shiftB to find bugs. If I

need to fix spelling and grammar, which

basically Grammarly, I just do command

shiftG. And so like it's and I and I

have a I have a one of my clients, I

have a a email rewriter for them and I

just it it writes it in their brand

tone. So like imagine for you it's like

you could have one for each of your

clients. Um but yeah, I have a lot of

fun with this. Um, the my favorite one

that I use is improve writing. And you

can you can customize the command. So I

basically say, "Hey, when you improve my

writing, here's how I like to talk." Um,

and uh, it improves my writing. And so

what I like to do a lot of times is what

I just said earlier, do the text to

speech. And then uh, if I'm slacking

somebody, I just say, "Okay, let me just

improve the writing." And I just do

command shift W and it improves the

writing. And I can

>> Oh, dude, that's so good. All right, I

gota I got to check out

that.

>> You didn't get anything from this. Like,

>> that was so money right there. Yeah, the

best side quest ever right there.

>> Oh, I love it so much. Um,

>> cool. So, that's kind of the the prompt

chaining of of it all. And then at the

end of the day, you get Let me just go

to the finals final solution of getting

the email template. Um, yeah. And it's

just I'm a big fan of bullets. I found

that like clear bullets helps helps with

like clickthrough rates and like reply

rates I found for email outbound. So

that's kind of why we do it like this.

And um

>> nice. And then that last piece there is

that is uh the last node in your flow is

that just converting it to

uh oh send API request.

>> Yep. So from here I just send the email

template

to Zapier. Um and then in Zapier I

update HubSpot. But

>> Oh, I see.

>> Yeah. Okay.

>> But I built this a long time ago like

before they had integrations. And so I

really could just go into here and put

HubSpot and just update.

>> Oh, nice.

>> Oh, there you go.

>> Yeah,

>> I see what you Okay, got it.

>> Yeah. But what's cool is like I all all

I do for personalization. And this is

like in just one of the things that I

think unlocks a lot for marketers is is

just add a custom feming

automation or like CRM or whatever for

like for whatever you are prompting on.

So all this is is a custom field. So if

I go into HubSpot the output and let me

just pull it up because this will be

interesting.

Um,

let's just pull up one of the workflow.

Uh, oops. Call what did I call it again?

Expense

membership expense form. Yeah. So,

basically all I'm doing is um the output

eventually it just gets sent as a

marketing email

from my seller and you'll see all I do

is just say Marshon here use this

personalized template to pitch Pavilion

and I put the like expense membership

email automated or the bulleted summary

and then the email and so basically it's

the same thing that's in the output in

uh in copy copy there

>> which is uh

>> just the benefit list and then the

output. So yeah, that's that's how easy

or when I say easy, I mean the prompt

engineering I mean that took me the

longest time I spent was just on

honestly dude just like refining

prompts. Refining prompts refining

prompts which is like half the game with

AI.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

>> People get so pissed off about and why

they quit is because they don't want to

refine prompts.

But you gotta you gotta take

>> I spend so much time on prompts itself.

Yeah. Like just get something down like

well first if if you haven't really dug

into prompt engineering there's a lot of

easy courses out there or even there's

even like a really good Lenny's podcast

that they talked with one of the prompt

engineers that consult with perplexity

and chat and all those right or open I

should say. Um, so yeah, if you are not

that deep in prompt engineering, first

go do that. But then, yeah, a lot of it

is if you're not getting the output,

just refine the prompt. Like continue to

refine the prompt till you're getting

the output that you need. It it again, I

just get annoyed at people that are

like, yeah, uh, AI isn't working. It's

like, no, like the smarter the prompt,

the better the outputs you're going to

get.

>> Yeah. But I think what's an I think I

think one thing, Brandon, that

at least

this thing I struggled with the most

when AI came out was I had all these

ideas about what I wanted to do. And I

didn't know what I wanted to do. I was

just like, "Oh, AI could really

transform blah blah blah blah blah." And

I and I thought and I thought it would I

thought it would be such a big impact.

And I did a lot of hacky things with AI

in the beginning. Um things that just

honestly weren't valuable.

call prep notes for my reps. Like, they

were great, but I spent freaking so long

trying to make the call prep notes

amazing when in reality, like their

workflow of using their brain and going

on LinkedIn actually was like just as

good, you know, and so

>> excited and I even recorded a YouTube

video about it and I was like, you know,

this is so cool. But then at the end of

the day like it wasn't the anyways the

effort I spent on that and the time I

spent prompting it and just everything

it just it didn't yield the return at

all in terms of like improved rep

efficacy. And so

what the beauty of it is is I spent all

this work prompt engineering for rep

call prep notes. A lot of that prompting

I could just pass over to this exact use

case because this is basically doing the

same thing. So, I've started to now

think about using AI of like what what

how can I use AI to like make a make it

easier for the customer to buy and

what's going to have the highest impact

to automate. And so, what I try to do is

talk to people when on my team and

thinking when you do use AI, when do you

use it? How do you use it? And if

they're if you hear like the same story

over and over again, it's like this is

an opportunity to use like a clay or a

copy AI or an inate to to put something

on autopilot.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And that's why I

always encourage that people just like

just go play with stuff like no matter

what, as long as you're playing testing,

you're going to learn something. Even

though in your just like your case like

sure maybe it didn't yield anything

right now but like you're learning how

to be more proficient in the future

using AI and you you'll be able to learn

what's what's possible what's not or

maybe I did spend an hour figuring this

one thing out but now going forward it

only takes me 30 seconds now because I

know how to do it you know so but yeah

that that is a challenge a lot of people

just don't have the time to play around

with this stuff on top of their their

actual day jobs you know

>> but See, that's But then I would argue

like, okay, you don't have enough time

in your day job. Why don't you have

enough time in your day job? It's

because you're probably doing

that's like manual or uh and and you're

not giving yourself the space to think

about what you could put on autopilot.

Like so much of this research like

research re you should never be doing

research on your own. like that.

I don't know in the world of like AI,

there's an AI point solution for

everything. Like the most basic thing

just to start today is just do freaking

research on your accounts and your

contact. It's not that it's so it's like

that's it exists. It's there. It's the

best way to use AI to start.

>> Totally.

>> And then in research, you can use your

own brain on how you want to activate

the research and then use AI to take the

how you activate the research and

systematize it. just it it's just taking

things one step at a time and like sit

with your freaking reps. Like if you're

a marketing person, just like sit with

your reps, watch them work. Like

literally sit next to them at a desk and

watch them work because what you'll

discover is like, "Oh, that's cool how

they like connected the dots there. I

wonder how I could do that for my

marketing outbound and personal like

reps are really smart. reps are really

smart and like you can get a lot of good

intel. Just because they don't know how

to automate things the way we do and

have that like systems brain like some

of us do doesn't mean that they

don't know how to do the human things

that get deals closed and gets deals

through the door. And so I don't know, I

just I I try to have a little bit of

grace and I didn't have grace a while

ago when I first, you know, a few years

ago when I was using tools like Zapier

and Make all the time and I talk to reps

and be like, "You're so inefficient."

And I would almost like scoff a little

bit. But now I'm like, "No, this person

can outnegotiate me any day of the week.

I need to learn how they do this so I

can then, you know, put figure out which

pieces nurture in a much better place."

Yeah exactly.

>> All right. Well, I love it and hopefully

I mean, even if it's just you take this

workflow and I I I feel like anyone can

use something where I'm helping my

buyers build a business case for buying

our solution, right? So, sure, maybe

it's a lead magnet, but if anything,

it's almost more of an enablement piece

to push deals across the line. But yeah,

of course, you can use it as enable or a

lead lead magnet as well. And now you

got a lot of intel that you can then

pass to your reps to then speak more

efficiently and effectively to those

leads. So,

uh, all right. So, you ready for

quickfire? Oh my gosh, I'm so ready,

dude. Sweet. All right. Uh, what what

does what is your current marketing text

stack look like?

>> Uh, HubSpot's our like main tool for

marketing. Uh, Clay,

>> or sorry, I should say AI. Marketing AI

tech stuff.

>> Marketing AI. Oh, dude. HubSpot recently

rolled out prompting inside of

workflows.

>> Oh. Oh, really? Wait, I missed that.

>> Oh, it's freaking insane. You Oh, it's

so cool. Like, you know what I just what

I just showed like in copy?

>> Yeah.

>> ChatGBT can't research LinkedIn

profiles. So, like there's still a gap

there, but you can prompt chain things

in in workflows. So, you could have like

Yeah. your your step in a workflow

instead of like copy property value

could be run pro run uh a model

>> a specific prompt.

>> So I've actually been starting to mess

around with that. Um but otherwise like

been a clay user

user.

>> Nice.

>> And that is pretty much it. I've

actually done a lot of consolidation

recently.

Um, and consolidation has been nice

because I realized we were buy we had a

bunch of tools for things that like you

don't need point sol a lot of times you

don't need a point solution if you can

point solutions can be great

and you you ask for a rapid fire

question. So my rapidfire answer is I'm

not going to talk about point solutions.

There you go. I love it. I love it. Um,

all right. So besides me teaching you

everything that you know about AI. No,

I'm just kidding. Uh where do you go to

learn AI? Uh could be podcasts, could be

books, could be blogs, newsletters.

I um

I'm so biased when I say this, but like

Pavilions AI and go to market channel.

Um yo, honestly, like one of the reasons

I love working at Pavilion is I get I

get to like be part of the conversation.

And so we um yeah, we have a channel

called AI and go and GTM and that's

where that's where the the people that

are at the forefront of like using AI

and go to market um talk about how

they're using it and share templates.

And I taught I uh I've been I've been

really like interested in

more of like the actual templates and

prompts to share with people rather than

highle here's how I approached it. It's

more of like, "No, just give me the

freaking

>> I'll build something."

>> Like, it's like what you put together

>> um on uh that I reference a bunch um the

like prompt library you put together.

Just give people the things they need to

make their job better. Don't try to like

gate it with some ed some highle

educational thing that

>> Yeah. Like thought leadership.

>> Yeah.

>> It's like the people on LinkedIn just

like

>> I don't know. It's like I don't know.

There's a lot of people on LinkedIn that

say they uh I'm gonna go on a tirade

about LinkedIn real quick, but like and

I don't really care, but I've I I have

personally had conversations with people

on LinkedIn that act like they're AI

experts and they signal that they are

and a lot of people are like trusting

them and then I get in the weeds with

them, have them share their screen and

they uh ask me for advice on how to

build workflows out. And so like I I

just just just take things you see on

LinkedIn with a grain of salt. like look

look very closely at like what this

person is doing on uh what they do if

they're an operator and how their

company is doing because a lot of people

really like to talk about all the crazy

amazing great things they're doing but

their business has been freaking burning

cash every single month and it's just

like what do you are you really that

great if if like and I get it people

like love to hear and talk about

themselves but like please

>> please like take that kind of thing with

a grain of salt because that always

comes back keeps coming back it's Oh,

well, like this is the this must be the

best way to approach this. But it's

like, no, this is not the best way to

approach this. It's just somebody some

talking head that thinks that that that

Anyways, I'm going to I I just wish that

there were more. This is why I love

Pavilion so much because it's such an

it's such like a a like a no pitch, no

>> Yeah.

>> just here's how we do it. Like, call it

a day,

>> you know? So, anyways, this please join

Pavilion and use the reimbursement tool

to get your company pay for it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Exactly. Yeah,

that's why you're on this podcast. I

see. I hate you, Brandon. I'm just here.

>> Yeah. Just to just to sell more to sell.

>> Uh, no, dude. I I'm totally with you. I

was with one of my one of my clients and

they they were hiring someone and

they're like, "This is the best guy ever

with AI and they were surprised on the

call when the person couldn't dig into

the weeds." And it's like, dude, it's

like, yeah, it's pretty obvious once you

actually get on a call and you have to

talk about it and people asking you

questions about it whether you know it

or not. So, I mean, for those people who

are just posting a highle theoretical

thought leadership on AI, like sure, it

might get you the interview, but it's

not going to get you a job unless you

actually know how to get in the weeds to

do things.

>> Yeah. And if it does get you a job,

you're only going to be there for six

months.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So,

uh, I la last question. What is your

biggest challenge with AI?

>> Adopting it across the org in the right

areas.

>> Like I I am having a I'm having a it's a

great opportunity. Um and everybody's

dealing with this, but um it's like how

do I take how do I take the how I think

about AI and and I'm a nerd. I've been

living in Zapier since 2015. Like that's

how I live. That's how I've lived my

career. And so where I've had the

hardest time, frankly, is how do I

enable the rest of the org to use AI in

very similar ways or be creative about

how they can use AI. Um, so I'd say it's

it's definitely just the enablement

because it's like there's all these

things that I know you could use AI for,

but if nobody's speaking up and saying

this is how I use AI or this is how I

think I could use AI,

>> then you're screwed. And so one of the

questions that a lot of people ask is

like what things could do you think that

AI could help you with your job? That's

not the right question you should be

asking. The right question you should be

asking is like what are the things that

you like write down what you do every

single day.

>> Yes.

>> And when you see a through line that

you're doing literally the same

repetitive tasks or you find something

that like you're halfassing all the time

like maybe that's but it has a big

impact. It's like maybe that's what you

need to do. So what I do, what I started

to do is like sit with people and have

them screen share and just go through

their day-to-day and I'm just like, "So

how do you do that?" Oh, why do you do

that? Why do you do that? It's almost

like doing user interviews, but like I

found Yeah, that's a good way to think

of it.

>> Yeah.

>> What about you though? I'm curious.

>> I've thrown What's your biggest

challenge with AI? You work with like

big You work like really good companies

that are at the forefront. I'm curious.

>> Well, okay. So, so personally for me my

biggest I mean yes definitely the

adoption for those companies 100% a

challenge right and um yeah it's almost

like the the way that I think about

adoption of things in general is like

people adopt like behaviors rather than

specific tools and so if I can teach

them how to

>> or show them a reason why they should be

adopting this behavior then it's almost

like okay now I'm bought in now I

understand fine I'll take the time to do

it But that is really hard to do. But on

a personal level, there just like so

there's so many damn tools out there and

the the race is insane right now where

they come out with something, then they

do, then they try to one up it, then

this other tool comes out and it's just

like so many different things going on

at once. And I want to try to, you know,

be as hands-on as possible where it's

like, I want to try these things, but I

don't have time to learn it all. or

maybe I invest a week here and then it

feels like it's irrelevant cuz this

other tool just came out. That's I I

mean half of it is more than half is

probably just hyperbole in marketing

where it's like the NN killer or like

the nano banana you know flash 2.5

killer, you know, there's all these

headlines out there and it's so for me

it's like the freaking noise and then

just figuring out what what should I

really be focused on? And I think if

you're focused on just the fundamentals

and you're testing things out um like

you're you're going to be ahead of most

people.

It's also

I agree with you and I

have recently been diving into some

unsexy industries and

>> just know

if you're in tech you are in a bubble

that is the bubble of tech and you may

feel like you're always behind but trust

me when you show somebody chat GPT for

the first time who runs a $50 million

home improvement business off a very

basic CRM system and all you do is just

take a customer call, transcribe it and

populate a CRM with a couple fields that

the call center people don't have to

remember to do.

>> Yeah,

>> that blows their mind and they will pay

big dollar for it. So if you're think

about ICP these and you're an AI

company,

>> selling into tech is a freaking

like it's like next to impossible. It's

so hard.

>> Yeah.

>> Just I mean these there's so many

industries that are unserved by this

right now. And it blows my mind that all

these new AI startups and tech startups

are focused on this ICP that is already

so like I

>> so saturated. There's so much noise.

>> Am I missing something though? I don't

know. It's just like I mean I You're

100% right.

>> Who you want, who you are. I get it. But

it's like, damn.

>> No, you're 100% right. It's the unsexy

industries that don't get all the

attention. And I was even doing some

work with a a law firm.

>> Yeah.

>> Some of the most basic stuff that we

were doing 10, 15 years ago. I showed

them some of these like best like

standard best practices for our

industry. They were blown away. And I

was like, really? You were you were

blown away by the simple workflow that I

did in HubSpot for you. It's like no

way.

>> Yeah.

>> It's wild, man.

>> You're doing better than you think you

are.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, yeah. Give

yourself some grace here.

>> Just chill out. Take a take touch some

grass. Get turn off LinkedIn for a

little bit. You're doing okay. You're

doing okay.

>> Exactly. Well, where can people actually

first where can people access that uh

that reimbursement tool that you showed?

I'm sure it's on the website.

>> Yeah, you go to

joinpavilion.comreimbursement-tool.

I think that's literally what it is.

>> All right. So, yeah, we'll we'll link it

up in the show notes.

You can mess around with it and you can

also get to it from our pricing page and

anywhere else that you think would be a

relevant place. uh to have it. It's

probably there. Um and uh yeah, and the

tool I use is Copy AI. They just got

acquired by FCcast. So, um check those

guys out. And uh

>> where can people connect with you?

>> Uh connect with me at josh

carter.marketing

and that will redirect to my LinkedIn.

So, just hit me up on LinkedIn. It's

Josh Carter or Josh Carter.

If you want to use my fancy redirect,

which by the way, don't get a dot

marketing as your email ending because

it a confuses people at the restaurant

if you get or like at Lowe's and give

them their email and then b all the

email validation services like half of

them don't accept marketing. So, and

then you click enter and it's like I

can't log in to pay my my car payment

right now and I'm getting like I'm

getting calls like as I speak I'm

getting collection calls but just it's

just because I'm like locked out of the

account because I use my dot marketing

email.

>> Anyway, noted. Be careful with these

domains.

>> They may seem they may seem fun at the

beginning.

>> Oh my gosh, this was fun, man. I'm glad.

>> Yeah, dude. I really appreciate you

taking the time, dude.

>> All right, take care, everybody. You

too.

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