How One Man Overcame His Autism

From the free press, this is honestly

and I'm Barry Weiss. Leland Vidder is

one of America's most recognizable

television correspondents. You'll know

his face from years of frontline

reporting in places like Egypt, Libya,

Israel, Ukraine. You may have also

followed his tumultuous exit from Fox

News in 2021 after clashing with the

network over their coverage of Donald

Trump and then perhaps his redemption

arc, becoming the host of OnBalance and

the chief Washington anchor at

NewsNation.

What you might not know, I certainly

didn't, is that Leland Vidder is

autistic.

He's just written a book about it called

Born Lucky, A Dedicated Father, a

Grateful Son, and My Journey with

Autism. In it, Leland explains that he

didn't speak until the age of three.

That he was born severely crosseyed and

struggled with basic concepts like eye

contact, humor, conversational cues, and

social rules. Suffice it to say, his

middle school and high school years were

nothing short of hell. So, how did the

kid that I'm describing go from being

totally lost, socially isolated to being

on television? The answer is work.

Relentless, non-stop training,

particularly by his father. His father

knew that the world would not change for

his son and that his son would have to

learn to adapt to the world.

Born Lucky is a profoundly moving memoir

about how Leland and most notably his

father worked to beat his autism. You'll

have to read it to understand how they

did it. Now, Leland was diagnosed about

40 years ago. Since then, the

conversation around autism has shifted

dramatically, and so has the rate of

diagnosis. In the 1980s, about 1 in

1,000 American children were diagnosed

with autism. Today, it's 1 in 31.

Why are more people being diagnosed? Is

it genetics? Is it pollution? Is it that

people are having children later? Or is

it something else entirely?

The question about what causes autism

and how we treat it has become so

politicized though that the conversation

has left people resentful, anxious,

confused, or scared. And most critically

for parents of children suffering with

autism without answers. Born Lucky is

landing at an especially interesting

moment given that the Trump

administration has just put the topic of

autism at center stage. Last week, Trump

held a controversial press conference

where he drew a link between the active

ingredient in Tylenol and autism,

telling mothers not to take it and to

tough it out. That is among the many,

many things that Leland and I talk about

in this wide-ranging, fascinating, and

emotional conversation. You won't want

to miss it. Stay with us.

[Music]

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Layen Bitter, welcome to Honestly.

>> Longtime listener, first time caller,

>> Common Sense OG subscriber.

>> Common Sense OG subscriber. And now I

have to follow the former head of the

MSAD whose nickname is model, which of

course there's no pressure.

>> Model because of his good looks, which

you also share, but you maybe you're

more humble than him. Well, Leland, your

nickname growing up was Lucky. Maybe

people still call you that. I think

>> everybody everybody who knew me when I

was a kid

>> it's an amazing nickname and the

publication of your book which is called

Born Lucky a dedicated father a grateful

son and my journey with autism like

could not be more perfectly timed to the

news like you clearly are born under a

lucky star or at least luck with timing

and that's because autism is sort of the

story of the moment thanks to the Trump

administration um and its FDA which just

announced that it's going to change the

Tylenol safety label to say that it may

cause autism and ADHD in children whose

mothers take it while pregnant. This is

what Donald Trump said to expectant

mothers in the White House in a

conference about this new change. Don't

take Tylenol. He said, "Don't take it.

Fight like hell not to take it." Paul

Offen, a famous doctor and head of the

vaccine education center at the

Children's Hospital Philadelphia, called

it arguably the most irresponsible

public health press conference in

history. Sorry that that is a very long

windup to a big question, but I've been

so eager to sit down with you ever since

this news broke to ask you what do you

make of it? Well, I will say something

that President Trump did not in his

press conference, which is I am not a

doctor. Therefore, I am not going to

give you any health advice.

What I think is important in this, and

thank you for asking, I think you

highlighted the most important part,

which is that autism is now part of the

conversation,

and that's missing. So now on TikTok,

you have pregnant women

downing bottles of Tylenol to own

President Trump.

which I think sort of shows you where we

are in the conversation that so many

people would rather ridicule the search

for a cause rather than have an honest

conversation about it.

>> Had Jay Badacharia on the show on

NewsNation inspired by your podcast with

him.

>> And he said,

>> "For so long you weren't allowed to ask

the question, why are autism rates

growing?" And he said, "I don't know. I

can't tell you as a physician. You have

something that went from 1 in a thousand

when I was diagnosed with what we now

know to be autism. Now 1 in 36, 1 in 12

for boys, higher than that for poor and

minority communities. You can live with

HIV. Most cancers have been cured or to

the point now that they won't kill you.

We can create bionic people with fake

joints, heart disease, diabetes. All of

these things we made huge advances in in

40 years. And autism we have not.

>> It's a medical mystery. It it is a

mystery. But because of whatever you

want to call the surrounding aura around

it, people have been unwilling to ask

the scientific questions in an honest

way.

>> Well, let's talk about the surrounding

aura because there's lots of different

culprits, I think you could say, in

creating that aura, or maybe it's a fog.

on the one hand and we ran this

incredible piece by a woman called Jill

Cher, a mom of two children of with

profound autism, non-verbal um children

mostly um who speaks about sort of the

rise of this neurodeiversity pride

movement, the idea that we should just

accept our autism and in fact it's

something you know like um like anything

else to like gay pride to be to be proud

of. and she says that that has sort of

stymied, honest, curious research into a

cause. Other people say that the

>> fog has been created by people that are

so concerned that looking into any

connection between autism and vaccines

will lead people to not get their

children vaccinated for critical

diseases like measles and polio. Still

other people point to pollution. Like

what is your sense when you look at the

big pie of who is most to blame if we

can say that for a lack of an answer to

what has caused this unbelievable rise.

>> I I'm not smart enough to answer that

question. I think the answer is yes and

right. It is all of these factors coming

together. I think the neurodeiversity

pride movement if you wanted to call it

that. Um, and look, there was a little

bit of that in my story, too, that

people told my dad, "Look, you know,

it's kind of who he is. Let's meet him

where he's at." Uh-uh. That was not how

I

>> Yeah. And we'll talk all about him

>> grown up um in any way, shape, or form.

>> But I think it's a yes and issue that

that there are all of these contributing

factors to not answering and not

honestly investigating. And and

Badachari was very open about it. He

said, "Look," he said, "there there is a

lot of resistance within the scientific

community to researching this issue and

to coming up with an honest answer to

it." He said, "Do I think it's

vaccines?" No. But I don't know. And

that to me is the is the real sort of

awful part of this. And I say that

because how are we letting politics or

the sacredness of vaccines or this wacky

let's celebrate everyone who they are no

matter what struggles they might have

are are now meaning there's going to be

a lot more kids who had the hell that I

did growing up and they may not have a

father who could quit his job and who

could become a full-time parent coach

and who could devote himself to me in

the way my dad did. So, why wouldn't we

try to help those kids?

>> You wrote this piece in the Wall Street

Journal. The title was, "I'm autistic

and RFK Jr. is right to hunt for root

causes." This is what you wrote. There's

been a tremendous increase in autism

diagnosis. You put out those numbers

before. It's kind of astonishing. And

everyone has their pet theory for why.

The answer in that situation is to do

excellent science so that we can find

out what causes it and so we can address

it in an informed way. Do you think that

this administration is actually equipped

and serious enough to to do it?

>> First of all, they would be the first

ones to do it. Okay. So, I I think it we

shouldn't make perfect the enemy of good

or great, which is RFK, and I went in

this in the piece. Is RFK the perfect

messenger for this? No. Um, was that

press conference with Trump a little off

the rails? And there is a is there way

too much desire I think to have a quick

answer rather than the white right

answer. Absolutely. Um that all being

said at least we're talking about it

now. You take you know think about how

much has been discussed about breast

cancer in women. Think about how much

has been discussed about heart disease

or HIV or any of these other ailments or

conditions that that are there

>> and that and how much research has been

put into finding why it happens and how

to deal with it.

>> That hasn't happened with autism and the

numbers speak for themselves that it

should. So is is it's confounding to me

or telling that there is so much

interest in saying what it's not with

such shity and so little interest in the

humility of at least somebody's trying.

>> There are a lot of people who believe

that the rise in autism diagnoses is the

result of the fact that we just diagnose

autism more. And it used to be that only

truly profound autism was diagnosed, but

somebody let's say with Asperers or, you

know, much more higher functioning was

not diagnosed. Do you think there's

something to that, too?

>> Yeah, I think there is. Right. So, when

I was four or five years old, and I tell

this story in the book, right, that I'm

clearly off, I'm nonverbal. Um, you

know, when my mom would come to play

hour at the little elementary school,

you know, all the kids would sing songs

and they would sit on their mom's lap

and then the moms would leave and then

the moms would come back and I would not

sit on my mom's lap because I was mad at

her and I wouldn't talk to her for a day

because she had left me. Um, I had no

friends. We have the report cards on

every social skill. Needs improvement.

Needs improvement. Needs improvement.

Needs improvement. Needs improvement. um

seventh grade, a principal said to my

parents on the second or third week of

school in my new school called them in,

"Hey, everyone here thinks your kid's

really weird and I see you sort of

closing your eyes." You went to just cuz

I just reading the book and we'll get

into this. The what you endured

>> it's like beyond bullying. So they like

it was beyond and then she followed up

and I think he's weird too which

basically says the administration feels

like anything can happen to this kid.

That said I wasn't profoundly autistic

and that's what I was trying to to get

at with your question

was evaluated a couple of different

times. They come to my parents they say

we really don't understand what's going

on in his head. So

>> Le since you bring that up can I just

there's there's a point in the book

where you talk about

>> this sort of chasm. You describe

yourself, these are your words, as being

sort of a genius in some ways and mildly

in another. And there's this

68%

number.

>> So, so this is this is the big

evaluation, right? So, after all these

things, it's fourth or fifth grade, they

say you need to have Lucky evaluated,

which to any parent is like crushing,

right? And you're they're defensive and

they're upset. And so, they take me to

the psychology testing center. They're

sitting there waiting, you know,

lenolium floors, old magazines,

whatever, stale coffee. The woman comes

out with me, takes my parents into a

conference room and says two things.

One,

the IQ test that they did is two halves.

On half of it, I was genius and the

other half I was mildly So,

learning disability is a 20 point

spread. I had a 70point spread, which

they said they had never seen before.

that pro provoked the response from the

psychologist. We really don't understand

what's going on inside his head. They

diagnosed it as a pervasive

developmental disorder, now an autism

spectrum disorder. But

>> the concept of what was happening, they

didn't really understand. And that's

that moment that my dad said, "Is there

anything I can do?" And she said,

"Generally not."

>> So you think about that as a parent. And

the next dot is in the line, just meet

him where he's at. Right? Like let him

be him. pave the way for him on and on

and on. And that's when my dad said

anything. And she said, "Well, if he's

smart and he really wants to change, you

can help him." But it was on him.

>> So, what this book is about, and I think

it will be, I mean, what it's about more

than anything else is parental love and

just unbelievable parental dedication.

Like, it's almost like when you see

those videos of moms that lift a car

when a child is stuck underneath. that

is the equivalent of what your parents,

especially your dad, did for you. Um,

but it's basically about more

practically how they taught you to

overcome your autism. And I think a lot

of people will hear that and be like,

what? Like autism isn't something that

can be sort of beat back or overcome.

That's impossible. What do you say to

that?

>> Couple of things. One, I think, and I

can't remember if it's Autism Society or

Autism Speaks says if you've met a kid

with autism, you've met one kid with

autism. Everybody's different. This is

not a prescription. This is not a cure.

What you pointed out though is what

George Will wrote in the forward, which

is this is proof of the mountain moving

power of parental love. So the story

goes beyond autism. It's to ADHD. It's

to anxiety. It's to kids with physical

disabilities, the bullying and hell that

comes along with growing up. For anyone

who knows a kid's suffering through

that, this book is proof there's real

hope and that parents can make an

enormous difference. And they're not

told that. Parents right now are told,

"Hey, put Sally in bubble wrap. You ask

what my parents did with me." Number

one, my dad figured out that I didn't

have any friends. So he said, "I'll

figure out if I can be your friend." So

he became my best and only friend

starting at five. He's really the only

person I could communicate with or spend

time with because he's the only person

who was willing to sort of deal with the

incessant questioning and the horrible

like sort of oddities of my social

behavior.

concrete things, right? So, he would

take me out to lunch with his friends

and he had been a successful business

guy when I was diagnosed. He sold his

businesses, but he would take me out to

lunch with Barry, right? Cuz you're in

the media, he was in the media, we go to

lunch. And I was very interested in

politics, news, business, all that stuff

from a young age. So, I would start

peppering you with questions, right? How

did you start the Free Press? Why why

did you start it? Why did you leave the

New York Times? when you left the New

York Times, what were you thinking? So,

how did you start your blog? What how do

you much do you charge on Substack?

Okay, how much of Substack revenue do

you get to keep? It would just go on and

on and on.

>> Yeah.

>> At lunch.

>> And he would sit there and at some point

he would tap his watch.

>> And that was my signal to stop talking,

number one,

>> in a way that didn't embarrass me cuz

you wouldn't know that I was being told

to shut up.

>> And it was also a bookmark. So he would

come back and after lunch on the way

home or whatever, he'd say, "So when

Barry was talking about or Miss Weiss,

because politeness was of eminent

importance in my household,

>> when she was talking about, you know,

her and Nelly meeting over Goldfish at

the New York Times and you asked about

Substack, why do you think it was more

important to talk about that than

>> what she wanted?" she wanted to talk

about and it would go through this

teaching

moment of the

the social interaction that comes

naturally to so many people. Another

example, you know, self-esteemed is

earned and not given in our household or

in my growing up in that sense, you

know, now it's like every kid, oh,

you're fabulous. No, you got to earn

being fabulous. So, starting at 5, 200

push-ups a day, 5 days a week. Um, and

if you did that, you got to go to Disney

World with your mom in 3 months or 4

months. And we would sign a contract and

it was very clear this is what's

expected, but you you got something

tangible, right? And those some of the

many stories I tell in Born Lucky about

how my dad began to mold me. And I think

the term I use is right. So many kids

they say adapt the world to the kid. My

dad's quest was to adapt me to the

world.

>> I want to talk more about what you did

your dad did because it's unbelievable.

Before we do, I want to go back to the

what the evaluator said to your parents,

which is I we have no idea what's going

on in his head. What

>> most people could say that's probably

still true, but

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, it's sort of true of any human

being, right? But take us back like you

describe being not speaking till you

were 3 years old and then speaking in

full sentences, being profoundly

crosseyed. Um being really, you know,

not not socialized, not doing typical

things. You you describe like standing

in the corner when your mom comes back

to the playr. It's as a mom. It's like

heartbreaking you to read this stuff.

>> What do you remember about like your

earliest memories? How did you

>> early memories memories being

soul crushing isolation at school um and

feeling completely and totally embattled

day in day out. So my mom used to say to

my sister because in fifth grade she was

in kindergarten so she and I would walk

home from school every day

and

she's 5 years old right and she said I

remember every day you'd pick me up in

my kindergarten classroom and we'd walk

sort of out the back of this school and

when you got to the woods because the

woods sort of backed up to the woods

that got to our house

>> you'd start crying and she said I'm in

kindergarten and I can't figure out why

my brother's crying. every day. So that

was sort of the result of the day. And

look, you know, I was a weird kid. I

brought aeronautical books to recess in

third and fourth grade because that's

what I was interested in. I didn't know

how to re relate to kids.

You know,

I rolled my socks down because I had

sensory issues in my calves. I was

crosseyed, like cartoon-like. I mean,

there was lots of things. I was really

chubby and chunky and easy to make fun

of and kind of funnyl looking. Um,

the the most I think profound story that

sort of tells you where I was when I was

really young. This is now fourth or

fifth grade. My dad realizes I'm really

getting bullied and isolated. And he

comes over to the grade school I'm going

to. And goes to PE class because that's

where I was. He knew the PE teacher. Guy

was a big football player. My dad was a

very gifted athlete. and they're looking

over the PE fields up on a hill and my

dad goes, "Hey, how's Lucky doing?" And

the guy goes, "Jim Hoots, good guy." He

says, "You know, I I think he's doing a

little better this week. You know,

working on him." My dad goes, "Oh,

that's great. You know, let's go see

him, you know, because I couldn't play

with kids, you know, soccer or anything

like that. People would push me down.

They'd hit me in the ball head with the

ball on and on." The guy goes, "I don't

think that's a good idea." My dad goes,

"Why not?"

And the PE teacher says, "Well, I I've

had to put him with the girls."

>> Yeah.

>> For the past few weeks because he can't

be with the boys. I had to put him with

the girls. Quote, "To protect him."

>> So, I think that sort of shows you what

I was going through.

>> The one that shattered me. That was one.

But you talk about a teacher, an art

teacher in 8th grade saying to you in

front of the entire class, "If my dog

was as ugly as you, I would shave its

ass and make it walk backward." Yeah, he

did.

>> A teacher.

>> A teacher in front of the whole in front

of the whole eighth grade art class. You

know, there's art on the walls. It's

like, you know, you're in one of those

art rooms. And that's what he said. Um,

I walked home that day

and my dad would always wait for me at

the end of the driveway cuz he knew sort

of how hard it was.

>> You literally talk about you being a

broken puzzle and your dad like putting

the pieces back together every day.

>> Every day. And I walked home and I was

He said, "How was school?" Well, I said

I was just humiliated. I was just

sobbing. And you know, it's funny. I I

still remember the guy's name. Won't use

it, but I still remember it. Um,

>> of course you do.

>> Yeah. And

that night and every night, I mean, that

this was one story. This was a daily

occurrence of some event like this. I

put it in the book because I remembered

the quote and it sort of stuck with me.

But I

would spend just hours with my dad and

he would sort of put me back together

and I would take out my anger on him. I

would yell at him. I would ask why this

is happening to me, why people are doing

this to me.

>> Why can't you protect me? So as a

father, how soul crushing is that to

hear?

>> What would he say to that?

>> He would say

the values and character traits that

make you a target now are going to make

you successful later in life. That was

his mantra. That's a pretty

sophisticated reasoning for a kid in

fifth or sixth grade.

>> It was the only thing he had. And he

said, you know, you you and look, you

know, that next morning after 8th grade,

after the our teacher said that, he made

me go back to school.

>> So, I think a lot of parents, even ones

that would have a kind of tough love,

you know, wanting your kid to learn to

cope with the world as it is attitude,

which is the opposite of a lot of

contemporary parents, for sure. But even

people that have that would maybe hear

stories like this and think, I would

have yanked my kid kid out of school. I

would have homeschooled my kid. I would

have found a different situation.

>> To be fair, they did at one point,

right?

>> Um for a little while. And I think they

made the decision. I know they made the

decision that they had to,

you know, look, to be fair, my parents

were in a financial situation where my

dad could sell his companies and quit

his job and do all of these things to

make life really easy if he wanted to.

But he realized, I think rightly so,

that if you don't go back to school the

next day, how are you going to do it in

a newsroom? Okay, I mean, this was the

middle school was the best training for

a Washington DC newsroom you are ever

going to get in life. Okay,

>> pit of vipers.

>> Pit of vipers. And it is exactly the

same way. So, you know, it's one of

those things that once you've been

through it, you know you can do it. And

you know, look, and it was hard on it

was as hard on him as it was on me.

Okay? So, I would cry myself to sleep in

eighth grade every night. You know, I

would talk to him for hours and he would

put me back together as my mom would

say. And then he I now know this. I

didn't know it for 40 years, but our my

bedroom was upstairs. He would come

downstairs 10 11:00 at night and he

would sit in the living room by himself.

My mom would would often go to sleep

thinking my dad was up with me and she'd

come out at 1 2 in the morning and he

would just be sitting there crying.

So it was this was a this was a whole of

family endeavor um to do this. But fast

forward

to

I've been asked to leave or invited to

leave Fox News after the 2020 elections.

I've left my longtime girlfriend of

eight years. I almost died of COVID all

in the same month. And I am in my

parents guest bedroom in Florida. can

barely walk because of the lung damage

from COVID. And I was just shattered as

a human, 35 years old. My career was

blown up. Everything in I think you know

what it's like.

>> I understand.

>> Not the co part, but most of the other

parts.

>> Yeah, you got it. And my dad said,

"Look," he said, "you went back to

school in 8th grade.

>> You can do this."

>> And he was right. So Leland, one of the

things that I want people to understand

is that so your you got this evaluation

as a kid and but your parents never sort

of labeled you or had you formerly

formally diagnosed as autistic. So in

this in the school setting,

>> right? No one knew anything.

>> No one knew anything.

>> Looking back on it, I want you to a

explain why they did that and how you

think of it now as an adult looking back

on it whether or not that was the right

decision.

>> Great questions. um

at the time, right, they knew various

parts of issues I was having. I had

severe learning disabilities, what we

now know to be severe learning

disabilities. I had profound difficulty

in social settings. I had difficulty

regulating my emotions. All things that

now we now know as autism, right? And we

now put all that together and say autism

spectrum disorder. There you go. at the

time it's really hard to understand

what's going on inside his head. So it

was these very sort of

opaque definitions and and you're right

you know my parents when that principal

said hey look everybody here thinks he's

weird and I do too on the second week of

school. Um my parents could have said

well you know he's got all these issues

and you really need to protect him and

you need to put him in bubble wrap and

you you know he deserves special

treatment and more time on tests and on

and on and on.

>> The decision was made a couple things.

one, they didn't tell me, they didn't

tell my sister, they told nobody

why. Number one, they didn't want me

labeled. They said once you're labeled,

you will always be labeled. Um, number

two, they said you will

not have those same kind of

accommodations later in life. People

will not make exceptions or

accommodations or understanding for you.

They may say they do, they may play

along, they won't. You got to learn how

to operate in the real world. The sooner

that starts, the better. Number three, I

think they felt as though

it might actually make things worse

>> because sort of everybody then treats

you as a fragier egg and it it can't

work out. So,

>> and number four, you know, I didn't have

therapy. No, I didn't go to a therapist

ever.

>> I'm looking at your every kid every kid

now has a therapist. Well, you write in

your book about how your dad is your

therapist, but it's like Yeah. Every kid

that stubbed their toe has a therapist,

>> right? Well, yeah.

>> And you're getting like you literally

describe it as absolute hell. And it

sounds like hell what happened to you in

school. And you never go to a therapist.

>> And now I'm doing therapy on on podcast,

honestly.

>> No, but even as an adult, no therapy

ever.

>> Really?

>> No.

>> Do you think that your parents were

against it? Like if you had I'm just

baffled by that. No therapy ever. No.

>> Do you think therapy is

>> I think whatever people need is what

people need. I'm not going to go through

I mean it worked for me,

you know, and look, if my wife was here,

she may have

>> different,

>> you know, he could he could use a little

help still. Um, but no, I think there

was a idea and look, maybe it was that

my dad saw that sort of I could get

through it, right? like that he could do

this on his own. I think you know if I I

I don't know. I I don't know. And and he

write he it's weird right because the

book has the forward by George Will and

the afterward by my dad and I have to

fill 240 pages in the middle which was

tough but my dad said you know and I've

asked him you know in retrospect

would you have done things differently?

And he said, "Maybe, but you know, my my

sister asked my mom, why didn't you tell

me?" And she said, "I never wanted you

to see your brother as anything other

than your brother."

>> Let's talk a little bit about your dad

because he's an unusual person. It's

just unbelievable.

>> Tell tell us about him.

>> He is so uncomfortable

with the hero designation. And I think

when you read the book, right, you know,

we have some really remarkable things.

So he grows up in this very austere

household, um, very tough father who

died when he was 16. So when my dad is

16,

tell you the story in the book that he

is there with his brother. He's getting

ready for a date. His brother walks in.

and his brother says, "Our dad died."

Takes him down to the family office.

My dad's dad had a construction and

window cleaning business. Opens the

opens the safe in the office and pulls

out a letter, big, you know, sort of

oldw world mahogany lined office with

big chairs and everything else. Opens

the safe, pulls out the letter, and the

letter was written by my grandfather who

was older to his two boys. And in it the

letter says you are defined as a man by

your character. Not by your accolades,

not by your worth, net worth, not by

your successes, by your character. And

I write in Born Lucky. Dad has spent his

whole life trying to live up to that

letter that

that is what he measures everybody by

character. And that was the unyielding

standard that he had for me. Right. You

could do I could do anything wrong.

You couldn't have a lapse of character.

There was no lying. There was no

fibbing. There was no

moral lapses allowed. We'll leave it

like that.

>> What's the moral? What were you

thinking?

>> I mean, just just your character, your

all that mattered was if you were a good

person

>> to my dad.

>> There was a funny quot uh tweet that I

saw. There's this writer Emily Zenady

that I like. I don't know if you follow

her on Twitter, but in in light of the

conversation around autism and root

causes, this is what she tweeted.

>> My children are not on the autism

spectrum because I took Tylenol when I

was pregnant. They're on the autism

spectrum because I, a person who will

wear only one type of shoe and can't eat

food that's too potatoey, had babies

with a man who has an encyclopedic

knowledge of European aristocracy but a

limited ability to process social cues.

In other words, some people stipulate

that there's the reason that there's

people with that the re the that

genetics is a profound cause of autism

and hyper intelligent people procreating

can create hyper intelligent people that

are somewhere on the autism spectrum

disorder. Do you think that's true of

your parents?

>> I mean, are my parents hyper

intelligence? Yes. Do you think your dad

unquestionably my dad is on the

spectrum? Um now the the difference

>> you think he understands himself to be

>> Yeah. I mean and I think he I think he

understands now I would say

and look you know the the in Born Lucky

we show you at 17 years old 18 years old

my dad's really lost as a person. His

dad's died. His best friend pulls him

aside and hands him a copy of How to Win

Friends and Influence People by Derek

Dale Carnegie. And my dad went home and

read it that night and he read it again

the next morning and he thought the the

window the windows have been open. This

is the manual to my life.

>> He gave it to me and I didn't understand

it.

>> And I still now understand it and I get

it. Putting it in practice for me is a

lot harder than it was for him. So, and

it's, you know, he understood it at 18.

I'm 40 and I'm now finally getting the

discipline to be able to do it. So yes

and I think it's why he understood me

and the difference for number of the

differences of him and I growing up. One

of the difference was he was a really

great athlete in high school which is a

currency which I was not. So there there

was there were differences there were

also similarities and look you know

>> um when I was growing up he used to

always tell me the story about going to

college and getting black balled by all

the fraternities. Right? know bid night

in Ripen College in Wisconsin.

He's the only guy left in the dorm

without a bid.

Fast forward 35 years later, my freshman

year at Northwestern.

>> Same thing happened.

>> Same thing happened. And

>> this was such a touching part of the

book.

>> I walked downstairs out of the last

fraternity that said, "You're not going

to get a bid. I'm standing on a street

corner in Evston, Illinois at

Northwestern. Snow's coming down. I'm

crying in the middle of January." And I

called my dad and I said, "Dad, I'm just

like you."

>> It took me about nine takes to get that

when I did the audio book. And you can

see now I'm

>> It is the most I was crying so hard when

I read that last night

>> cuz what he says is so what? Well, tell

tell you say what

>> Well, he basically says to you

>> it's a it's very much like going back to

school after the art teacher. Are any of

them maybe interested?

>> Well, what he said was, "Are there any

other fraternities?"

about

that guys. He said, "Is there any other

>> um I did, but that that was his way of

dealing with things." And I think also

and I said to him where I thought you

were going with this, I said to him that

night, you know, looked at I'm just like

you.

And I think that was the first time I it

really resonated with me that it was how

I was acting, you know, and I said to

dad, I said, I have to be honest with

myself. You know, you've always told me

this isn't about me, this is about them.

>> I have to be honest with myself that

it's a little bit about me, too.

>> And maybe I was old enough then to hear

that or to think that. And that was sort

of the moment I sort of started

realizing okay

now I have to start changing,

>> if that makes any sense.

>> Yeah. The thing that comes across in

that moment and just at really every

moment of this book is just the profound

love

>> that

I mean it's it's it's hon's going to

have to read it cuz it's hard to capture

the

just pure parental dedication that they

have for you and you do sort of

understand how you had the confidence to

go out and do so many things because

their love for you was like just an

absolute immovable rock that the

expression of your dad of of your dad's

>> admiration and respect and love for you

comes across in so many different

moments. There's a moment though where

you sort of give back that love to your

parents in turning down something you

really wanted to do because you knew how

much it would eat your dad alive. Can

you tell that story?

>> I think it's important to sort of set

the stage right. My dad is my best

friend still to this day. It's 11:00

a.m. that we're recording this podcast.

I've talked to him twice.

>> I was going to say, yeah.

>> Okay. And I'll talk to him a couple more

times afterwards. And I will call him to

say good night. Okay. And last night

when I was taking the subway from Pix,

which is where News Nation does the show

in New York next to the UN, over to Time

Square. I said, "Hey, Dad. It's 10:30.

I'm out of work." He talked about the

show for a minute. He said, "Oh, that's

great." He said, "What are you doing?" I

said, "I'm going back to the hotel." He

goes, "How are you getting there?"

>> I said, "Well, you know, because of the

UN, there's all this traffic, I'm going

to take a subway." He goes, "Take a

cab."

>> Dad, it's fine. I need to take the

subway, otherwise I'll be in a cab.

>> How old are you, Leland?

>> I'm 43,

>> right?

>> And by the way, I was a foreign

correspondent for four years. And

>> during the Arab Spring, I should point

out.

>> And he goes, "Okay." He goes, "Well,

I'll call you when you get home."

>> Wow.

>> And you you are a married man. I am

married and and look, you know, he now

calls Rachel and I every night to say

good night. And that is that is our

relationship. And God bless my wife for

understanding and realizing how

important that is to to me. And I think

look, my dad's 78 years old. Some of the

roles are reversing. It's now that. But

I'm in college. I'm trying to figure out

what to do with my life. My dad didn't

want me to go into business. He wanted

me to do something meaningful, in his

words, with my life. He said, "Look,

I've been successful enough. you need to

go do something important. Um, he always

wanted me to do that. And through a sort

of opaque

way of the stars aligning, I'm at a

career fair in at Northwestern. I see a

booth for the CIA. They're recruiting

analysts to go sit at Langley and look

at data and everything else. And some

guy walks up to me and points at the

seal of the CIA. Goes, "Hey," he goes,

"Uh, think that's interesting?"

And I say the story in born lucky. I

said, 'Who on God's name, green earth

would want to be an analyst? And he

said, 'You have a resume? I hand him a

resume. It turns out that I had done

some things that they thought was

interesting because being a journalist

and being an intel officer are not that

much different. Um, now is my MSAD

moment after you interviewed the heads

and

go through the recruitment process of

the CIA. um which was a wild experience

of interviews and sort of seeing if you

can role play and everything else. But I

do my three-day stint at

some undisclosed location in Northern

Virginia where they do all the

psychiatric testing and all the

intelligence testing and the role

playing exercises and everything else to

see if they want to make you a job offer

to be a operations officer, director of

operations case.

>> And you're profoundly honest in the

testing. Let me ask you about hilarious.

>> Okay, so there's this

>> like they usually the CIA they're like,

"Have you ever smoked pot?" And most

people are like, "No, you

>> look I when I was 5 years old, I lied

one time and my dad write me made me

write. I will tell the truth a thousand

times. I've never forgotten it." But on

the forms of your security clearance, I

was just before I was going to take the

polygraph. They say to me, one of the

questions is, "Have you ever committed a

felony?"

Yes. Uh, and the story goes that in

college I had a liquor delivery

business. Uh, so I I don't know when I

wrote what the felony was. And the guy

goes, "Tell me about that." The security

officer, I said, "Well, in college I had

this liquor delivery business. I had a

fake ID. I would go to Costco and buy a

bunch of liquor and then I would come

back and resell it around the dorm in

the fraternities."

And I met Costco one day, January, I

think, with a big orange cart filled

with booze. and I am at the cash

register and all of a sudden like the

alarm on the cash register goes off. So

they've scanned my Costco card, they've

scanned my ID, they doing everything.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And over

walks a manager and I'm sitting there

thinking I I'm going to have to run

because I'm going to get arrested for

having a fake ID and my dad will murder

me. Like my life will be over.

>> Yes. prison would be a wonderful

alternative to what's gonna happen to me

from my father for having a fake ID and

doing all this. And the manager walks

over and he goes, "Hey, uh, how you

doing? Uh, what's with all the booze?" I

said, "Well, you know, I don't know. My

friends are having a Super Bowl party

this weekend. We have a lot of people

over to the apartment. There's like 10

guys." He goes, "Oh, okay."

>> And at that point, I'm thinking like if

I run, I'm guilty. And they have my fake

ID, but it had my real name on it, and

they had my Costco card, so this is a

problem. He says, "Hey, uh, there's no

problem." He says, "But you've bought so

much liquor over the past 6 months or

whatever. We need you to sign an

affidavit that you are going to not

wholesale the liquor."

Okay, come to the back office. I'm

thinking there's a cop in the back

office. You should run now, but if you

run, you're guilty. So, get to the back

office and the guy's having me fill out

this affidavit. There's no cop. This is

odd. Okay, fine. And now he's

photocopying my Costco card and my fake

ID, which was a New Jersey fake ID with

my name on it.

And he photocopies everything. I sign

everything. He looks at the affidavit.

He goes, "Wait a second." And the

address on my fake ID was Mawa, New

Jersey. He goes, "Mawa, New Jersey. I'm

from Mawa, New Jersey. Of all the gin

joints in the world, this guy's from

Mawa, New Jersey." He starts asking

about high schools and everything else.

Thinking, "How do I get out of this?" I

said, "Look, my parents just moved

there. I was there for Christmas. I

don't know anything about it. I just had

to get a new ID cuz my old driver's

license was expired from college." Blah,

blah, blah. The guy goes, "Okay." hands

me everything back, I leave. So, I tell

that story to the CIA. And I think that

sort of sealed the deal that they wanted

me to come work for them. And I'm now

leaving the CIA testing center. And I

think I have two or three weeks to make

a decision if I'm going to join or not.

Sign on the dotted line, take the

polygraph. And one of the things they

had had you read before this were books

about the agency that had been written.

One of them was about the wall of honor

which is the stars at Langley of all

those officers who have died in the line

of duty and their stories some of which

are public some of which are not. One of

the very first stories is about a guy

who was taken captive in communist China

at the very beginning of the agency and

held there and every year his mother

would get to go visit him once a year

through Hong Kong and bring him a

sweater. And he was in the Goolag in

China.

And I thought to myself, and this is

during post 911, this is 2005. I was

very patriotic, still am, wanted to

serve on and on. I thought to myself, if

I went into the military and I died,

that would be one thing. It would be

soul crushing for my parents, as it is

for every gold star family.

But if I was grabbed somewhere

and I they knew I was alive, they

couldn't deal with it. And that would

just not be fair to them after

everything my dad had done for every

night for him to have to worry. I just

couldn't do that. So instead, I decided

to go be a foreign correspondent during

the Arab Spring. Um, but I I told the

agency, you know, thank you very much.

No. And then began my career in TV.

>> Okay, we'll talk about TV in a second.

Did they ever reapproach you?

>> Not going to answer that.

>> Really?

>> No.

>> And when you told your dad that you were

turning it down, what was his reaction?

>> Elation.

>> Elation. Okay.

>> You know, normally a parent would be

like, "You really need to do what's good

for you,

>> right?" No, not your dad. My my dad said

he thanked God and started crying

because he knew how terrified he was

going to be and he knew how scared he

was going to be. So

>> before we talk about your career in

television, because I think Leland, one

of the things that's amazing to me is

I've watched you on TV for years. I

never would have known you had autism.

And the reason for that is because of

the the parenting rituals, the countless

hours that your parents, specifically

your dad, poured into you to sort of

train you.

>> When you read this book,

>> I think some people will say to

themselves, I wonder if I could do that

for my kid if they were not profoundly

autistic. If they were sort of asberers

or

>> somewhere in the middle,

>> somewhere in the middle of the spectrum.

Why do you think your dad's methodology,

if we can call it that, isn't more

widely replicated? Do you think it could

be?

>> Look, there's a lot there. The book

isn't a prescription. It's not a cure. I

appreciate what you said about seeing me

on TV. I think if we spent more time

together,

>> I would know.

>> You'd see things. And you're about you

you have about as high of an EQ as there

is. You'd see things. Look, I'll give

you an example. a couple of weeks ago.

I'm at my father-in-law's golf club. Um,

and I'm we're running late. We finished

golf. I'm out in the parking lot trying

to pack up my travel bag because I have

to get it to FedEx or whatever. And one

of the sort of classic things of autism

is that you become hyperfocused on this

one task, right? I'm late. I have to get

the golf bag packed. Blah blah blah

blah. Well, the guy we had just spent 18

holes with came over and wanted to talk

to me cuz he had been in a different car

and he wanted to talk to me. actually

about born lucky about the book nice

older man and I'm trying to pack the

golf bag and I was profoundly rude to

him I mean just blew him off to the

point I mean I felt like I was 12 or 13

again and my dad would have been like

lucky stop lucky stop packing the bag

you need to come talk to Mr. So and so,

you need to look him in the eye, you

know, like that would have happened at

that moment. And I'm 43 years old. And I

almost I knew it was happening in my

head.

>> Mhm.

>> But you didn't stop yourself.

>> I didn't stop myself. And I just Oh my

god. It was just soul. It was so soul

crushing. And I I then said to my

father-in-law, I said I told him what

happened. You know, he he was off doing

something else. I said, "Look, I I

really need to apologize to your friend

because I was so rude to him

>> and I'm really sorry." Mhm.

>> Um, I don't ever say

>> it's because I have my

>> because my autistic grand the standard

is the standard. I knew better. That's

just who I am. And I, you know, I got

his phone number and I wrote him a long

message. I just I'm so sorry I was so

rude.

>> Did he accept your apology?

>> Didn't hear back from him.

>> Really?

>> No.

>> So, I guess that

>> which by the way, if I was an older man

and somebody had blown me off like that,

I can't really blame him. So my question

is like

the no right even right now in

conversation is there noise in your head

that tells you do this do this

>> yes

>> in every moment of your life h

>> how do you how do you kind of

>> tune that noise down enough in order to

be present in a conversation or how do

you do that

>> a lot of working out that was a big part

of my life from when I was a little boy

I mean my dad had me doing push-ups When

I was old enough to start rowing in

starting a sport, I couldn't really play

any sport with a ball because I was so

uncoordinated. But rowing is basically

effort in equals results out. You know

who can work out hardest until they

throw up.

>> And and you work out so hard that you're

literally vomiting on the stair getting

up the stair master, vomiting, getting

back on it.

>> Um that was in high school.

>> So working out helps

>> huge. So like before before this, um

went and worked out really hard this

morning. Um and then it's just a

discipline. What does the noise sound

like? Is it commands? Is it like do

this, don't do this?

>> Well, it's

for example, as we're talking, like

there's a thousand times I want to

interrupt you with a thought or an idea

or a question or whatever. It's the

discipline

to stare you in the eye and to listen to

every question and to

internalize it and think about it and go

through the process of, okay, what is

Barry asking? What is the emotion that

she's showing? What is she tra? Now, it

sounds calculating. It's become it went

from becoming a completely sort of

algorithmic operation to it's I don't

want to say it's not second nature,

>> but it it just happens naturally in my

head now,

>> but it's still a learned skill. If we

were out to dinner and I'd had a few

drinks, there would be moments you'd go.

>> No, you probably you may not know what,

but you'd go, "That was a little off."

>> H,

>> you know, you you'd you would you would

see it. There there'd be a moment that I

would be focused on packing my golf bag.

That was a really sort of

>> extreme version

>> extreme version of it that doesn't, you

know, that maybe happens once a year to

me,

>> but it definitely happens. the way you

liken your condition to to alcoholism in

the sense that you're never fully

recovered, but that you constantly have

to work at it. Here's what you write.

There was no light bulb moment or

instant transformation. I compare it to

being an alcoholic. You're never cured,

but you learn to manage it. Even today,

when I meet someone new or I get

nervous, I catch myself talking too much

or missing cues. I'll leave dinner and

think, "Damn, I missed that queue or

lucky. Why did you tell that third

story?" I I wondered so much about how

this impacted your dating life. Like,

how did you

>> Well, it's a great It's a great It's a

great question. I don't know because I'm

only me. I think you'd probably have to

talk to my wife.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and she would give you a little bit

more of an answer.

>> But was it something that you would

disclose to someone you're dating?

>> I didn't really ever talk about this

probably until I was in my 30s.

>> Okay. I mean, I think, you know, the the

I don't want to say it's like, you know,

hey, by the way, you know, I have four

felony convictions, or hey, by the way,

you know, this ankle bracelet I'm

wearing, you should really know about,

>> right?

>> I think the women that I've had

relationships with, which I've been

lucky to have dated some wonderful women

and ungodly fortunate to be married to

just the most phenomenal person in the

world.

um they understand, you know, and and

and look, they're they're part of the

sol, you know, there's there are times

that Rachel still will grab my shoulder

and be like, "Okay, like that's enough

>> or, you know, let's think about how

you're looking at this situation." Sure.

>> Mhm.

>> One of the things that comes through

profoundly in the book is, and you talk

about this, the soul crushing loneliness

being a kid, and your dad becomes your

best friend. Your dad still is your best

friend, but at some point you you start

to make friends and you only start to

make friends as an adult. Like you

really don't have friends until then.

You're an adult. You're in Denver.

You're working as a local TV

correspondent and you you make your

first friends. How does that happen?

>> I think it happened naturally. It

actually happened on the ski slope. Um I

was a weekend anchor so I could go up

and ski on during the week. got to know

some of the people who were up there

just by skiing with him or staying at a

hotel or whatever. And I had never had a

friend before. So, it was very odd when

the guy who was managing the hotel said,

"Hey, come ski with my friends." Because

I'd always skied alone. I'd never been

invited. I think it was a combination of

I had started to mature enough and

become disciplined enough to understand

human interaction.

Typically, my friends have always been a

little bit older than me. still to this

day. Um, and

it it became a work in progress and a

discipline to try to understand what

being a friend meant and how to do it

and how to interact and

that, you know, I went from being on the

soccer field as a third or fourth grader

where I was repellent. You know, some

people attract friends like magnets like

you do. I was like a magnet that

repelled people. and now I've learned

part of how to do it. But again, it is

it is an everyday work in progress.

>> One of the things that I am struck by

with you is the people that I know that

have well maybe more severe autism, but

autism in general are not as emotional

as you. Like not as you you can easily

cry. You you you are mirroring my

emotions

perfectly. Is that a learned skill or is

it

>> Well, or is it so learned that it's now

natural?

>> I don't know if it's a learned skill.

Look, the only way that I got through

high school and middle school when I

graduated high school at the graduation

ceremony, so right before everyone walks

down, it's like 100 kids, so it's a

small ceremony. the

the principal of the high school. So,

headmaster principal, the number two

person said to my dad, "You know, we

have had people who had it harder than

lucky. We've never had anyone who had it

harder than lucky and survived." So,

that was high school.

But in order to get through that, I just

learned to shut my emotions off.

>> Yeah.

>> Like just I and I still can. I mean, I

can just turn them off and

>> really

>> Yes. and probably one of the reasons the

agency was interested in me. I don't

know how they tested for that but

>> was that quality

>> I'm sure they had a way to because it's

necessary by the way it was nec became

necessary in the Middle East you know

was way how you stayed alive when I was

a foreign correspondent was being able

to just turn your emotions off I've now

allowed myself to have emotion and to

feel and to

>> and to relate and to understand and it

was a defense mechanism

I want to ask you just one or two things

about the culture of parenting at the

moment. Then talk a little bit about

your career.

It's no like I'm not telling you

anything you don't know to say that we

have generally over the past decade I

think this is changing a lot lived in a

culture in which victimhood is sort of

venerated and the idea that um we should

sort of make incredible accommodations

to every single person for every single

thing and there's a there's some kind of

beauty in that on the one hand because

it's you know respecting difference and

all of that but it's been taken to a

really incredible extreme. And reading

this book, we're about the same age. It

feels even to me like you're writing

about a different time period, like

>> like the 1800s,

>> literally like like the 1800s or like

the 1930s. Like

>> Well, I mean, think about it. My dad was

raised by someone in the 1930s. Okay?

You know, I don't think my dad would

have lasted very long on the Oregon

Trail. He's not exactly the handiest guy

out there. Um,

to answer your question,

I think thinking of yourself as a victim

is a worse drug than fentanyl because it

is addictive and it is destructive.

>> Um, and that was not allowed in my

family in any way. You are not a victim

ever, even when really awful things are

happening to kids.

>> You literally were a victim. Like people

will read about what happened to you in

school and think I have maybe never

heard of an example of bullying so

horrible.

>> Yeah, I think that's fair.

>> So you were a victim, but it didn't

become your identity.

>> Well, but I think my my dad realized

that if it became your identity, then

you would always be one. It would always

be an excuse.

Um, and you can't have a happy life if

you're always

the victim or if you're ever the victim,

I would argue. Uh, it just it is a

different way of looking at the world.

And I I'm not a parent. I think this is

the first parenting book written from

the perspective of a kid. But it is a

absolute in our family that you are not

the victim ever. And that is the one

thing I don't want to say that my dad's

ever gotten mad at me

>> um or at my sister. Um Liberty plays a

wonderful role in this book. My sister

was just been magnificent. And look, you

know,

>> yeah, we should say that you also have

like an equally impressive, unbelievable

sister.

>> More impressive sister. And look, you

know, she got really crushed by this,

too. You know, I was a 12th grader at

the same high school as she was a

seventh grader. And some teacher said to

her, "I really hope you don't turn out

like your brother." and kids called her

the kid sister and they had a

big brother big sister program. So 12th

grader sort of adopted a seventh grader.

No one would be her big sister from my

class. So this is tough. My mom is the

one who comes out and finds her husband

crying in the living room every night at

1:00 in the morning and has to now patch

him up and then get up and send me off

to school. So two women who were saints

in this story as well. Um, but the only

time I've ever, my dad's ever, I would

say, been stern with me, um, is if

there's a sense of victimhood. That is

just a absolute non-starter.

>> One of the many things that your dad

instilled in you is that everything is

about goals, setting really clear goals.

And in this sense, you, I think, have a

what we would call a classic autistic

trait, which is this intense singular

focus, the thing that happened when

you're packing the golf bag. At eight

years old, you start flying planes.

>> Then you're obsessed with scuba diving

and rowing, as we talked about. You

would train until you threw up. Um, and

you also would throw up flying the

planes at 8 years old. There's a lot of

throwing up in this book. And then your

goal becomes becoming a TV presenter,

right? Which is an insane career goal,

>> specifically with someone with autism.

Um, but you get your start in high

school where you start doing radio times

and intern at this tiny station in rural

Michigan. I want you to start there.

Tell us about these early days at is it

Chemox? KM

>> KO X which is the was the big talk radio

station in St. Louis still is but

>> and then WBNZ

in Michigan. Tell us about that time.

>> I I was

>> and why that became your focus.

>> It was very simple and weird forks

happen in life, right? I'm in high

school. I want to stay in St. Louis for

the summer in row. Um, you had a

girlfriend. I had a Yeah, I had a

girlfriend. Um, and I wanted to stay in

St. Louis in row. My parents were going

to Northern Michigan for the summer. If

you want to stay in St. Louis, you need

an internship, they said. And this guy

who was the talk radio host on the big

station in St. Louis had once said to

me, "Hey kid, if you ever want an

internship, call me." And I loved

politics. I loved Rush Limbaugh. I

listen to him every day. So, I gave him

a call. If that guy had been an

investment banker or a lawyer or a

doctor, that probably would have started

that door. And look, my dad always said

to me, you can control two things, your

character and your work ethic. So that

was

that was my key, right? So, in as a

junior in high school, I'm working

really hard over the summer and I'm

always early to work at this talk radio

station at, you know, 6:30 in the

morning every morning. And I'm working

late into the night. And people people

who are good people naturally like

people who work hard because that's how

they've been successful. It's sort of

the way life is. Um, people forget that

these days that that's a necessary

quality and it's easy to do and easy to

have. So

do that. And Charlie Brennan, Kamwalk

Radio, I said, "Okay, you know, I'm done

with my internship. I want to do this.

What's next?" And he said, "If you want

to be good at this, you have to go

practice your craft. You have to get on

air somewhere in radio." Fine. So that

winter I went up to Northern Michigan,

which is where my parents had a house.

So desolate,

beyond desolate in the winter, snow, you

know, up to the roof of most cars.

and drove around and went to every

little tiny radio station I could have

and find and made appointments. Half of

the people stood me up. But this one guy

at this trailer that was about an hour

south of my parents house up on a hill

said, "All right, kid. We'll put you on

air." And he had a radio station that

was in a double wide trailer. There were

more cockroaches than were CDs. God.

>> And all summer before, this is before

SiriusXM. This is before podcast. is

really before you could have CDs out in

boats or anything like that. So,

everybody up in Northern Michigan

listened to the radio. I was the disc

jockey from 7:00 p.m. to midnight and I

would drive down an hour and drive home

an hour every night.

>> Did you love it?

>> I loved it. It was great. Um, and it was

freedom, right? Because it was something

I could do that I was good at and became

good and could work at, work at my craft

and then went to journalism school at

Northwestern. Um, only because I was the

white guy from Missouri who applied. Uh,

I didn't work on my high school

newspaper. It didn't work on my high

school television station.

>> No experience.

>> No experience. And I still have framed

in my office my first spelling test from

editing and writing the news at

Northwestern. I got a two out of 20. Um,

and that has not improved.

The a couple professors liked me and

just sort of said, "Okay, you can just

>> It's okay. Okay, it's okay. Just go on.

And at that then I started getting

internships at local TV stations.

Anyway, the first TV station I worked at

in St. Louis, somebody put up a sign

that said intern should be seen, not

heard. Because I was so obnoxious.

>> Oh god.

>> Uh, and then I did the same thing. I

wanted to get on air. Went to Madison,

Wisconsin, and Fateville, Arkansas, and

said, "If you put me on air for the

summer, I'll work for free." So I had a

tape and then Little Rock, Orlando. And

I and the goal setting part of this

which is I think

>> did you know where you want to go? Was

it Rush Limba or was it you know Dan

Rather?

>> It was it was I remember it very

clearly. I was an intern in St. Louis

Missouri top 20 market good station.

There were a couple of reporters who

liked me who would take me out and let

me practice my standups and teach me.

And one day somebody said to me, "Hey

kid, you're pretty good. You might end

up at the network one day."

And this was when you know Brokaw and

Jennings were gods. Matt Lowour's flying

around the world on the GE jet for where

in the world's Matt Lowauour. Um 9/11

had happened. So there was this just

sort of unbelievable amount of news that

was coming out. I was like

>> I want to do that. So I Googled what is

the youngest there has ever been a

network correspondent and it was 30.

>> So become a network correspondent by the

time you're 30. And look

>> in Born Lucky so much of this comes from

my dad. My dad when he was 20 years old

at college in DPA accepted to law school

he said I want to go start a company. He

said I want to be the youngest person to

start a company and sell it for a

million dollars which in 1970 sounded

like you know I want to go walk on Mars.

>> Totally.

>> Uh and

that was so that you know I'd heard him

set a goal and achieve it out of

college. So that was my goal out of

college.

>> Tell us about your big break which is

becoming um Jerusalem correspondent.

>> Yeah. So Fox News needs a foreign

correspondent in Jerusalem. I'm in

Denver. I'm 28 years old. This is 2010.

Okay. 20 Yeah. 2010.

>> Um they're rotating somebody home. Obama

has declared peace in the Middle East.

He's given his speech in Cairo.

Hillary's going to have a deal between

the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Nobody wants to go to Jerusalem. They've

offered the job to eight people.

And then the correspondent there was

pregnant and they called me and they

said, "Look, you've got to stop bugging

us. We're going to fly you over for an

interview. I didn't know anything about

the Middle East." I wrote a crib sheet

on my hand with a drawing of the West

Bank and Gaza. Um, I don't know if

anybody can see this. Yeah, West Bank

over here. The only problem was the

Middle East is a little hot and so it

all smudged and I wiped like ink on my

pant in the middle of the interview and

Ellie Fman who's the bureau was the

bureau chief for Fox said all right

we'll teach you how to do this.

>> Now the CIA was too much for your dad

but the idea of did he have any

understanding of what you were getting

dropped into?

>> No. And he really encouraged me like

look go be a foreign correspondent. He

thought this was like, you know, you're

going to be in Casablanca or Paris, you

know, at conferences and everything

else.

>> And so, 6 months in Jerusalem, I'm doing

nothing. The Arab Spring kicks off. Uh,

Fox News correspondent gets grabbed. I

was in Jerusalem covering it. Um, Greg

Palco gets grabbed in Cairo. Anderson

Cooper sitting there with his like, you

know, flashlight in a dark room going,

"I'm so scared. I'm so scared. You know,

what's happening to us?" Americans are

being told to evacuate. I get the call

from the foreign desk. I'm 1:00 in the

morning at home by myself in my

apartment. You're going to Cairo.

Somebody will pick you up in 30 minutes

or an hour.

>> Wow.

>> Grab, you know, cash, passport, satones,

black jackets, grab our go kit. And I'd

never done anything. No training or the

CIA. You do CIA. You do like 18 months

at the farm. This was like

>> you're getting dropped in.

>> Hey, my last story in Denver had been a

bear in a tree.

>> Okay. And now you're getting dropped in.

>> And now I'm flying by myself into

Mubarak.

>> Into the fall of Mubarak.

>> And I called my dad and my dad says,

"Okay, call me when you get to Athens.

So fly Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, Athens."

And I get my dad on the phone in Athens.

And my dad is sobbing, saying, "Please

don't go." They were in a hotel room and

I write in Born Lucky.

My dad said, "Please don't go. Please."

And I said, "Okay." I said, "I won't."

And you know, call it an act of love.

call it whatever you want. I said, "But

if I don't go, I quit because this is my

job. This is what I signed up for." A

month before I took this job, I sat you

and mom down at lunch and I said, "I'm

going to be doing really dangerous

stuff." He goes, "I know, but but I

didn't think this." And they're telling

Americans to leave. And on and on and

on. I said, "You tell me if you don't

want me to go, but you'll see me in four

or five days if I don't." And he said,

"Go." And then fall of Mubarak covered

that went into Libya for the beginning

of the Egyptian revolution and there's

the magic carpet ride.

>> You've acknowledged that you and your

dad have a very special relationship.

It's not 11 yet and you've already

spoken to him twice on the phone. You

will speak to him many times today. And

that relationship continues even when

you are in the war torn Middle East.

There is an story that you tell in the

book where you're in Libya. You sort of

like have just escaped some kind of

bombing and you get a call from your

dad.

>> Yes. And so have satellite phones and

every morning in Libya you would pack up

at the hotels. We would always have like

a couple of towns away from the front

lines so you had defensible space and

now middle of the night in the US cuz

we're six or seven hours ahead. You

would go out to the front lines, you

would film, you would gather your

material, you would do your reporting

and then you would drive back to the

hotel. So it was like an hour and a half

each way. And we had satellite phones

that had car antennas on them. And my

dad, of course, always worried, would be

calling all the time. And it it took at

one point saying to him, "Look, look,

Dad, I know you want to know if I'm

okay, but if things are bad, number one,

there ain't anything you can do to help

me cuz I'm in Libya and I need to be

able to pay attention. And number two,

calling all the time is really starting

to distract everybody and distract me.

And that means I'm focused on the phone,

not on whether or not I'm getting gonna

get shot or bombed or kidnapped or

whatever, which were real risks and

happened. not kidnapping, but everything

else. So, one day we're driving back

from the front lines and he kind of

figured out the timing. So, he would

call like, "Hey, I'm just calling to say

good morning." And really, I'm just

calling to make sure you're on your way

home and not shot.

>> I don't know what he was going to do if

I didn't pick up the phone, but he uh

calls me, the satellite phone rings. Hi,

Dad. How you doing? And I've got a

security detail in the car. I've got a

cameraman. I've got a producer. I've got

translators. Three car convoy. On and on

and on. And all these guys are like, "Is

your dad really calling again?" "Yes,

he's calling." "Hey, Dad. How can he

goes?" Hey, um so it's Wednesday and I'm

going to dinner in St. Louis, which is

my hometown on Friday. Okay, Dad. Great.

He goes, "Is there any way you could get

me a reservation at this restaurant

called Annie Guns, greatest restaurant

on earth, u on Friday, can I in Libya,

why don't you call?" He goes, "Well, you

know the owner." And they were all

booked up. I already called. So, will

you please call the owner of the

restaurant and did you do it? Well,

yeah. So, I call the owner of the

restaurant

and get his assistant on the phone and

Vita goes, "Lucky." And you know, you're

on a satellite phone, so it's a little

scratchy. And I go, "Hey, Vita, it's

Lucky. How you doing?" No, I didn't say

that yet. I said, "I need a reservation

for Friday night." And people have been

watching me on Fox and this was sort of

a big deal to have somebody from St.

Louis in a war zone. The Arab Spring was

this big thing. And she shouts to

everybody, "Ly's alive. He's coming on

Friday.

>> And I said, "No, Vita, I'm not coming on

Friday." She goes, "You're not." I said,

"No, I'm in Libya." She goes, "You're

calling me from Libya." I said, "Yeah."

I said, "My dad needs a reservation at 4

at 7:30. That'd be great." And

>> she hooked it up.

>> She hooked it up. But I guess by way of

saying, "I will always be my dad's

little boy."

>> Okay. So in your time as Jerusalem

correspondent, you reported through two

revolutions embedded with jihadis, saw

Gaddafi's torture chambers in Libya, sat

face to face with al-Qaeda leader

Zawahiri. I can never pronounce his

name. I think I just did it. Um four

years in really really intense

environments and then you realized you

were done. Yeah.

>> When did you realize you had enough?

>> Um

I just wasn't learning anymore. Hm. Um,

being a foreign correspondent is

lifetime job security in Jerusalem,

right? Because it's always going to be

crazy. It's been crazy for two or three

thousand years, but I felt like I had

learned what I needed to learn and then

it was becoming risk for risk's sake.

And naturally,

>> did you get addicted to it?

>> Yeah, you do. The the the adrenaline

Churchill said, you know, something

along the lines of there's no greater

thrill in life than being shot at

without effect. And that's true. and you

become addicted to the adrenaline and

then you're willing to take more risks

and I wasn't taking silly risks but I

knew that I was going to start be and I

was becoming desensitized to the

suffering

>> into the violence into the cruelty of

humanity and all of these things and

also remember set a goal I become a

foreign correspondent my dad's going

what's next you know

>> what's the next goal

>> what's the next goal and the next goal

was okay become a Monday to Friday

anchor

at a major network. So that that was

sort of that was always in the back of

my head of okay, you you can't do this

forever. And I missed my parents. I

missed America. Um love Israel. Um we

can talk about how sort of my my view of

the world was shaped in the Middle East

because when I went over there, I kind

of had much of the hey, you know,

there's a it's a two sides deal and we

need a two-state solution and all of the

sort of usual

>> conventional wisdom.

>> Conventional wisdom. Um, I was going to

call it brainwashing, but that's a

different um conventional wisdom that

exists and that changed, but it was time

to come home.

>> Well, take a beat, take one beat on

that. How did it change?

>> Real real simple. Um, 2012, I'm a

foreign correspondent for Fox. And you

know, normally you're when you're based

in Jerusalem, you're covering suicide

bombings, you're covering

protests in the West Bank or riots in

the West Bank, on and on and on. Because

of the Arab Spring, I really hadn't

spent that much time in Israel. And the

Palestinian Israeli conflict was not a

thing those years. There have been a

couple Gaza skirmishes, but there was

the Galadage Shalit deal where there was

a Israeli soldier who had been held

hostage and traded from Gaza to Israel

for a thousand Gazan prisoners,

>> including Senoir in

>> including Senoir and including a woman

named Waffa. And Waffa had been a

woman in the West Bank, a woman in Gaza.

She had pulled a pot of boiling water

over herself when she was like five or

six years old. The Israelis treat most

of the people out of Gaza who have

really horrific burns, catastrophic

medical injuries. She goes back to Gaza

after being treated for four or five

years in Israel, but has a pass to get

in and out of Israel,

which very few people in Gaza did at the

time. So, she gets recruited to be a

suicide bomber. This is in the second

inifat, so mid 2000s.

And

there's the video of her coming to the

checkpoint to get into Israel wearing

her suicide vest. And she'd been given

three target options by the Alaska

Martyrs Brigade. A bus, a cafe, or the

hospital that had treated her and saved

her life.

She chose the hospital that had treated

her and saved her life. She gets to the

checkpoint. They discover that she has a

bomb, or they really think she does. She

tries to detonate it. doesn't go off.

She gets thrown in jail again. The

Israelis treat her. They help her with

her burns. They educate her. They give

her a college degree. And now in the

glitch deal, she goes back to Gaza. So I

go to Gaza to interview her thinking

this is going to be a redemption story.

It was before Christmas, right? That

she's going to say

>> perfect Christmas story.

>> I am going to be the one to try and

forge peace and I believe in peace and

I've seen that the Israelis are not evil

that I don't want to kill them anymore.

Fine. So, I get into Gaza and I bring

with me an iPad that has the video of

her trying to blow herself up. So, we're

sitting across from each other like

this. She's wearing a hijab

in a very junky gazin apartment. It is

an awful place in every sense of the

word. And I

show her the video

and I said, "What are you thinking

watching this?" She goes, "Oh, oh, oh."

Has all this reaction. She goes,

"Oh." She goes, "I'm thinking I almost

tasted paradise."

Okay.

Would you do it again?

Absolutely. In a minute. This is my

calling in life. I said, "Wait a second.

These people treated you in all of your

burns.

They saved your life.

You tried to blow them up. They still

treated you.

they educated you and now you have a

chance at life back here in Gaza and

you'd want to blow them up. And she

goes, "Absolutely. They are the

infidels. They are evil. They are the

enemy." I can't remember what the exact

translation was. And that's when my mind

was made up about sort of the moral

clarity of the Israeli Palestinian

debate. Are the Israelis perfect? No.

But that's what they're up against.

>> And Leland, some people maybe will hear

that anecdote and say that's the

exception. What do you say to that?

go to Gaza and come back and tell me

after a couple days in Gaza that that's

the exception.

>> Okay. So, so you come back from the

Middle East, it's around 2014. Yeah.

>> You go to DC.

>> I do.

>> And what happens next?

>> Look, as we started this, right, my

middle school experience was great

training for a DC newsroom.

The I always said that I never liked

anybody who liked high school because

the values of high school are so screwed

up that if you really liked it doesn't

say good things about you.

>> Completely agree with that.

>> If you really like DC,

>> same thing.

>> Yeah.

>> The values that make you

>> popular and likable in DC, the currency

of DC

>> makes you not a good person. So I I

didn't really fit in. um probably still

to a large extent still don't fit in. Um

I'm more confident than I was in high

school to say I don't care.

Um I like to make the joke about DC. I I

will dance when there's music and I will

eat when I'm hungry, but I don't play I

don't play the game.

>> But you're sort of working your way up.

>> I'm working my way up at Fox. I'm a

weekend anchor. I'm doing pretty well.

Bill Shine played an enormous role in my

life. Um he was the number two at Fox to

Roger Alles and he had basically said,

"All right, kid. Go be a weekend anchor.

The next job is yours."

>> Um and then in 2017 he was fired, which

um was a horrifically unfair and unjust

thing. Um he had nothing to do with any

of the Roger Rail stuff. Didn't know

about it. The Murdochs threw him out

because the New York Times went after

him and decided they wanted another

scalp.

Really wrong. Um, and so I was an anchor

without a protector. Yeah. I I lost my

rabbi. Yeah.

>> Um, who the management at Fox turned

over and the new management I was not

one of their favorite children.

>> Um, the next job went to Ed Henry. Um,

that was supposed to be mine. Um, we all

know what happened to Ed. Um, and few

other

>> viewers might not.

>> Well, um, Google it. He didn't last long

in the job because of his personal

issues. Um, the irony of Fox choosing

someone who was so morally corrupt after

everything that had happened is pretty

rich, but there you go. They hadn't

learned. And

I'm I'm I'm on the outset Fox through

the late 2018 19. I'm spending a lot

more time with dad. I'm starting to play

golf with him because I'd learned to

play golf um or picked up golf with him.

>> And I was still weekend anchor, but it

was clear that my time at Fox

>> was coming to an end.

>> Trump went after you. So, the 2020

election happens. I'm anchoring the

weekends and

there was one of the stop the steel

rallies. So, Biden has won. Trump's

people are calling this fraud. Stop the

steel rally. I'm anchoring. And I kind

of did what I've always done, which is

ask hard questions. One of Trump's

spokespeople came on. And maybe it's

my sort of honeybadger nature. Maybe

it's that I'm offended when people don't

tell me the truth. There's lots of

reasons, but I really went after this

woman pretty strong um about where are

you going to find the votes? Why are you

doing this when there's no evidence of

fraud? On and on and on.

>> All basic journalism questions. And it

was this watershed moment because I was

the first Fox anchor to say the emperor

had no clothes.

>> And what happens?

>> Um I got a phone call shortly thereafter

to say you need to respect the audience

>> from a Fox executive from a phone name.

>> Yeah. I thought it was really important

in the book not to name the people who

are mean to me because this wasn't about

settling scores and the people who

really deserve credit if anybody reads

this is the people who are nice to me.

>> So that executive basically says to you

respect the audience audience. What does

that mean?

>> That means cool it. Um the audience

basically loves Donald Trump. You need

to respect the audience. And what we now

know is that Lachlan Murdoch had sent an

email to Suzanne Scott and Jay Wallace

saying he's done. Now, I didn't know

that at the time that came out. Yeah,

that it came out during the Dominion

suit saying Leland's done.

>> Um,

>> you were done as of that interview.

>> Yeah. Now, I wasn't fire I was not taken

off the anchor desk immediately because

they didn't want that look. Um, I was

told sort of through the grape vine

after New Year's you're done anchoring.

And my schedule was changed to punish

me. It was a very clear

>> This is what you write. I was being

humiliated, sidelined, made an example

of for anyone else who might step out of

line. And it was a complete you.

You're you're pissed in the book about

this.

>> Did I really say f you?

>> You you said f d- you.

>> Well, you see I am my father's son

still. Um

>> you were really hurt by this.

>> Well, it was just look I was kind of

like private school invited not to

return because I did my job

>> and that happened to other people. It

happened to Chris Stywall. That happened

to Bill Salmon as well. Um Fox has made

made their decision. Um it's a business.

They're allowed to do that. You know,

there's the text messages from Tucker

Carlson to Sean Hannity and Laura

Ingram. I still have actually on my desk

in DC. There was a text message that now

it came out in Dominion Suit where

Tucker says, "We've built Fox News and

Leland effing vitter goes and screws it

up." So on my desk plate at at the

office now at NewsNation, it says Leland

effing vidder spelled out um Tucker

Carlson 20 21 or 2020.

>> That's amazing. That's really really

really amazing.

>> So that so and look it was like private

school. I had a contract with Fox. They

weren't going to fire me, but I was I

was actually not only was I humiliated,

but they were punishing me, right? They

take away your show. They tried to put

you on as a weekend morning reporter. It

was a it was very clear what was

happening.

>> A lot of people there have been

obviously an enormous shakeup of the

cable news business, linear television,

all of it. The upshot of it is that many

of the people who 5 years ago were

staples. Tucker, Megan Kelly, and others

of Fox and other places as well have

struck out on their own. Why did you

decide not to do that?

>> To be honest, I didn't think about it at

the time. And here's why. Because almost

coinciding with that interview with

Aaron Perini where it was the end of my

time at Fox, NewsNation found me and

started talking to me. Um, Bill Shine,

who was the guy who had been dismissed

at Fox unfairly. He became a consultant

in NewsNation, gave Shawn Compton, who's

now the president of NewsNation, my

name, and said, "This is the guy you

want to go do fair journalism." and they

had called me and that door o really

really as the Fox door was closing that

door was opening and it never occurred

to me to go out on my own and and do

that and I I think all of those people

you talk about

are very talented, extraordinarily

talented. They're all opinion hosts.

>> I'm not an opinion host.

>> I'm a news guy.

>> You are a news guy. But you're also in a

way that I think is extremely refreshing

honest about your own.

>> It is called honestly, right?

>> Yeah. But you're honest about your own

feelings. You're like, I like Rush Limba

or I am patriotic. Like it's not as if

you don't break the fourth wall with the

audience and sort of let them into your

thinking.

>> I I think the real dishonesty and the

real bias is claiming you don't have

one.

>> We all have biases. All of us. Because

we're human. Because we have a pulse.

because we grew up in different ways.

Bias is not having an opinion. Bias is

excluding an opinion. And I think if you

look at what is really gone on in the

legacy media, we'll call it legacy

media, mainstream, whatever you want,

>> is the exclusion of opinions. Okay.

Jimmy Kimmel hasn't had a conservative

guest on for the past three years.

>> And you're saying the problem is with

conservatives who are saying he's

biased.

>> Like, no. the and I think what makes

NewsNation different and I can only

speak for my show is yes I do a

monologue and I will tell you what I'm

thinking and why I'm thinking I'll tell

you what's happening and why it matters

but then I will have somebody on who

profoundly disagrees with me every other

cable channel at 9:00 right

and journalists make lousy media critics

so I'll stop here in a second but you

know every night at 9:00 p.m. Sean Handy

will come on and say, "Donald Trump is

doing 4D underwater chess. Let me

explain to you." And then his guest will

come on and say, "No, no, no.

>> It's even better.

>> It's 5D. Let me explain." And then

there'll be a panel to argue over why

the two of them haven't been

complimentary enough to Donald Trump.

>> Okay, I'm on at 9:00 p.m. I know what my

competition's been doing. Caitlin

Collins is going to raise an eyebrow and

ask some snarky question. And

you laugh because it's true. And

>> no, I just love how blunt you Jen Saki

is going to come on every night and be

like "Tomorrow

is going to be Crystal Knock, right? The

Nazis are coming and taking over." And

then she's going to have a guest on. He

goes, "It may not be tomorrow, Jen. It

might be like in the next hour before

midnight." Okay, that's cable news right

now. So, if you come on, I know I I know

what my competition is going to do. My

job is to come on and be fair. And I

guarantee you every night if I tell you

what I'm thinking and why I'm thinking

it, there will be somebody on to

disagree with me. and they will probably

be smarter than me.

>> But I think there's a profound debate

right now about what objectivity and

fairness looks like because in the old

view of things before there were before

there was the internet and a thousand

different options, you know, you only

had the three anchor, you know, you you

you couldn't check your people. And so

there's a debate about whether or not

the way to return to objectivity is

about sort of um you know pretending to

be the view from nowhere or if

objectivity is about striving for

fairness, striving for having the the

the greatest number of voices sort of

inside the tent debating an issue. Does

that make sense?

>> It does. Um you know they tried to say

AI was going to be unbiased and then we

ended up with black Nazis. So I I don't

think that's the answer.

The whole reason that things were less

biased or presumably less biased with

three networks in a broad sheet

newspaper in every town was because it

was broadcasting. There was a financial

incentive to get the largest possible

audience.

There is now a financial interest in

making a very small audience very angry

on both sides. And I think what makes

NewsNation different, I will do a little

bit of my own PR here, is we say that

between the 35 yard lines is the radical

center. And I think you've talked about

this. The way to bring America back is

to acknowledge that there's people in

the center who really care. And for so

long, people in the center have been

sort of forgotten about. It's like

you're in the center because you don't

really care. You're sort of like

interested in

>> you're the soilent of politics. You

don't really You're interested in you're

interested in

>> your kids football games and in

gardening and you don't really care

about politics. There are a lot of

people in America who really care, but

they're passionate about being in the

middle.

>> Like what sort of what I said, right?

Maybe Tylenol may maybe the president of

the United States yelling at women and

shaming moms who took Tylenol isn't a

great idea. At the same time, we really

need to find why autism has gone from

one in a thousand to one in 31 cases. If

you can hold those two thoughts in your

head, that to me is the middle.

>> Well, one of the things your dad has

like all of these nuggets of advice for

you that are throughout the book. One of

them that you mentioned before is

character is sort of destiny. The other

is, you know, self-esteem is earned, not

given.

>> Set firm goals, wear them down with

quality. What were when you think back

like what is the most important thing

that your dad taught you?

>> Character is destiny. And I think that

goes back to what was so important to

him. And you know, you talked about the

letters. We have the letter in the book

that his dad wrote him. And we have the

letter that my dad wrote me when I went

off to war. And that throughine of

character is

what has defined our family.

>> Lucky, I want to call you Lucky now.

Talk about it. Leland. Um, you know,

I've known you as somebody that I watch

on television that I think is really

great at their job, as I said, had no

idea that you had an autism diagnosis of

any kind. And I think it'll be that case

for a lot of people that know who you

are and have watched you and, you know,

sitting behind that anchor chair and the

nice hair. And I wonder, you know,

growing up, you were not known by this

diagnosis. In fact, your parents didn't

even want your sister to know about it.

What has it been like to share something

so personal? Um, and are you worried

about that in any way?

>> Am I worried? No. Because I am who I am.

I I don't think it defines me. I don't

think a diagnosis should define anyone.

At the same time, you will never in my

life hear me say, "Oh, that was because

of the autism. Oh, that's my autism

speaking." Like, I don't think you can

use should or could use stuff like this

as a crutch. At least speaking

personally for me, uh I think the

standard is the standard. I think you're

known as your by your character. Uh I am

sure at some point Donald Trump will use

it um in a tweet. He's tweeted lots of

mean things and lots of nice things. And

when he is angry, there's always a

moment that he'll poke at what he thinks

is a weakness. That's fine. Um, I made

it through high school and the greatest

gift my dad ever gave me was not paving

the road and making it a beautiful easy

walk. It was knowing that it was the

road through hell, which high school

was, and holding my hand through the

adversity because now I know I can get

through it. And I think that's true for

any kid and for any parent that

adversity is a gift.

And if you embrace it and confront it

and overcome it to whatever the best of

your abilities are, it is the most

empowering thing in the world.

>> Leland Vidder, thank you so much for

joining me.

>> What a pleasure.