Matthew McConaughey: The Silent Crisis No One Is Talking About! I Sabotaged My Own Career!

I think too many people quit too early

and we give oursel the options in the

parachutes and things like relationships

and work self-help and we pull at some

when we could still be flying even

though maybe rocky flight we pull it

early and okay it's a safe move got down

to the ground what I was building didn't

last but most of the time it could if

you'd hung in there but if you have any

ambition resistance is going to come and

so own that

Matthew

Matthew

Matthew Mah

you've been able to climb to the very

top of the mountain again and again and

again. Is this natural talent or is

there anything transferable?

First to look at what's in your DNA.

Like I wanted to play basketball, but no

matter how hard I worked, I was not the

fastest nor the biggest. To look at what

do you have an innate ability for? Then

what are you willing to hustle for? And

this is very important because some of

us have innate ability, but we don't

work for it. We grew up hardcore on

hustle, hustle, hustle. Sleep was sin in

my household and no TV. Mom would always

say, "Why are you going to watch someone

doing something when you can go out in

the world and do it yourself?" And then

number three, endurance. I remember this

one time when I told my agent, "What I

want to do is dramas, no more romcoms."

And this $8 million offer comes in,

comedy. I read it. I said, "No, thank

you." I come back with a $12 million

offer. No thanks. $14.5 million offer. I

said, "Let me read that again."

Ultimately said, "No, I just bought

myself a one-way ticket out of

Hollywood." About 20 months after offers

came in, would those have come if id

have never stepped out? No.

No. Number four. If you do this, you're

most likely going to have some success

in life and that is you.

And what about Admiral Bill McRaven?

So he shared great wisdom with me when I

was seeking out male mentors.

We reached out to Bill and he wrote this

letter for you. He said, "Dear Matthew,

wow.

Are you able to share what you were

seeking guidance from him about?

[Music]

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get on with the show.

[Music]

Matthew,

you're a

particularly surprisingly

artistic creative

wise,

yet materially successful individual.

And it wasn't until I dove deeper into

your story that I started to understand

why that was why you are to me in my

mind such an anomaly because you are you

seem to be several things that don't

often appear in the same place. So my

first question to you is what do I need

to understand about your earliest

context to understand

who you are, the values you have and the

perspective that you view the world

with?

Fun question.

earliest on

basic values

of respect yourself, respect others,

give a damn about yourself, give a damn

about others. Combined with a mother

that wherever we went

in the world that we might have been a

little nervous to take a risk at, she

was like, "Don't walk in there like you

want to buy the place. Walk in like you

own it." So a a sort of boosting up of

what you could say is massive ego but

also you were not allowed to walk on

your proverbial toes in our family. you

were brought down. And if anyone

in our family, if anything, I would say

going back, I think mom, mom and dad

maybe could have been a little more

lenient with the successes that we had

and let when we did parade, when my

brother did win the the track meet and

walk through the house like this to

allow him to do that and and and you

weren't allowed to. You weren't allowed

to do that. You were immediately

humbled. No matter if you were coming

right off a victory or a win or a box

office hit, you weren't allowed to. At

the same time, you were raised up once

you were humbled. Um,

that balance. We were taught resilience.

Heavy heavy duty resilience. Baseline

gratitude.

Quit asking me for new shoes. I'm going

to introduce you to the kid with no

feet. Well, okay. Like sobering. These

were were these apherisms from my

mother. Yeah, but they were pounded into

us. All right. At the same time,

I was spent 36 years thinking I was

little Mr. Texas cuz my mom told me I

was until 36 years later I look at the

trophy and it says I was runner up and I

go, "Oh, mom was like overselling us to

ourselves at the same time. You better

be humble." So, it was almost like that

the out anything exterior

should not give you your identity. Even

though my mom's maliprop and fibbing to

us going, "You're little Mr. Texas." Or,

"Here, write this poem. I know you

didn't write it, but it's really good.

So, turn that in for the seventh grade

poetry contest." Okay. And I win.

It's true story.

Um, so this outlaw logic of my mom and

my dad also with work ethic. Hustle,

hustle, hustle. Sleep was sin in my

household.

Sin. I saw my dad asleep one time in my

life. I got up at 8:00 on a Saturday

morning and looked pee went through the

kitchen and peaked and I saw him

sleeping. I went and woke up my

brother's like, "Dude, what dad's still

asleep?"

He actually died 2 and a half months

later.

And connected that idea that, oh, if he

slept in that late, he must have not

been feeling well. If it was daylight,

you couldn't be inside.

There's a fierce sense of independence.

Hour, 30 minutes TV a night max. Mom

would always say, "Why are you going to

watch someone doing something when you

can go out in the world and do it

yourself? Turn that damn thing off. Get

outside." You had to be outside. Like,

go get out in the world. Go hustle.

Figure it out. Be home in the dark. That

was just the understood rule.

What about love?

We always knew we were loved. There's

never a question that we were loved as

as loving our each other, loving mom and

dad, being loved by mom and dad, and

make and mom would always keep on to

make sure you're loving yourself.

I remember breakups, heartbroken. She'd

let she'd let us mourn. She was a great

ear, very sensitive ear to that kind of

to pains like that, broken hearts.

But only for a day.

After a day, she'd crank up the AC/DC,

man, and go like, "Now, get up. You're

worth it." Her loss. Come on. Get out of

bed. Uh-uh. Come on. Uhuh. Quit moping.

Lift your head up. Come on. Come on,

buddy. We got this. Uh-uh. Her loss. To

give you the day. No more than that.

Our love in the family was physical.

My mom and dad

married three times, divorced twice to

each other.

They

fought. I got a great story in green

lights of them fighting and my mom

bashing and breaking my dad's nose with

the phone, him getting angry, her

pulling a chef's knife out, him dancing

around, dodging these blades and then

grabbing a ketchup bottle and

like a matador going touche

and splattering over with it and she's

getting it out of us just getting so

damn I'll cut you from your pocket.

touch. And finally her getting so

frustrated, throwing the knife down,

crying, both of them crying, coming

together, embracing, going to the floor

on the lolium kitchen floor and making

love,

no grudges,

no grounding.

You get in trouble, which we did.

one, we were always guilty when we got

in trouble,

but it was corporal. It was take your

licks. Get it over with. Take your

licks. We're not going to ground you

because that'd be taking away your time

and your time is the most valuable thing

you got. So, take it. Take your licks.

You're not going to get injured. It's

going to hurt. And don't yell cuz if you

yell more than licks, you're going to

get another one.

Licks.

Licks with a belt.

I can't, I hate, and lying were three

things that you got in trouble for.

If I said I can't, my dad's teeth would

just start to go,

"Excuse me? You sure you're not just

having trouble?"

I remember this one time I was going out

to do my chores Saturday morning to mow

the lawn and I I couldn't get the damn

lawn mower to start. Checked everything,

couldn't get it to start. I'm going

inside. I said, "Dad, can you help me

out? I I can't get the lawn mower

started." And he turned around, saw his

molders. What?

And he got up, walked with me through

the kitchen, through the garage, out the

backyard, went to the lawnmower, messed

around, pulled a couple things out.

After about 10 minutes, boom, cranked

it. And while the lawnmower was running

right there,

he came over to me and bent down and

looked me. He goes, "See, son,

you were just having trouble."

I said, "I hate you to my brother." cuz

I heard the word at school and I thought

it could make me feel like I was older.

I thought it was like a a teenage soap

opera thing and I was only nine. So I

threw it out there one day at my own

birthday party. My own birthday party. I

said to her, "I hate you." And my mom

stopped the entire party. 40 kids my age

in the backyard. Stopped it. My birthday

stopped it. Pulled me around the side of

the house and he said, "What did you

say?" You don't ever use that word

especially to someone in your family.

Gave me licks on the side of the house

and then went around dry your tears

resume birthday party's back on. Don't

ever use that word especially to someone

in your family. So what did I learn from

don't say can't that

unable to do something you can even if

you can't pull it off you can go find

help which means you were just having

trouble. What I learned from getting a

butt whoop him for saying I hate you to

my brother. Well, what I was learning is

the antonyms to those words because

saying I can't, lying, and saying I hate

you were bringing me pain. So, the

opposite must bring pleasure, right?

Tell the truth, love, and believe that

you can. Those were the values, how I

remember them getting instilled in me.

And to this day,

I still have them. Trying to transfer to

my kids as well in a different way than

my parents did. But I still not even

intellectually have them. I have they're

in my they're in my being now. So the

the the the love was tough. The love was

phys. We hugged

999 times more than we more than the the

the hands soothed much more than they

hurt. 999 times out of a thousand. But

it was a we were a physical hugging

loving family. You always went to bed

with an I love you and a kiss. Even if

it was ritual, which it was,

like a Sunday service, gotta wake up.

Even if I'm not listening to the damn

preacher, I'm being subconsciously

reminded that you should take a day out

of the week to be at the most number

two. That you should go get humbled and

say thank you to a higher power and

thank you for the things that you have

in your life and thank you for the

people you have in your life and helping

those people double down on those great

attributes that they have.

So the the love was all there that I'm

happy to say that all the I have people,

you know, after that story I told about

my mom and dad with the knife and the

ketchup. People come, "Oh my god, I'm so

sorry about your childhood. Oh my god,

have you had therapy?" I'm like, "No,

and before you please, if you don't

mind,

don't you feel I feel like you're

trespassing a little bit by giving by

coming out of the gate saying, "Oh my

god, you were abused." No, I wasn't

abused.

And I never felt like I wasn't loved

again. I felt like I let my parents down

those times.

I did I fear my parents? Yep.

Are there a lot of things I did not do

as a kid that I should not have done for

fear of the consequences? Yep.

We knew we were loved. I knew I was

loved. My brothers knew they were loved.

My second brother's adopted. He knew he

was loved. And it was hard love. And it

was tough love. And my mom and dad's

love was passionate love. Um, I mean,

divorced twice, married three times is a

pretty good example of can't live with

you, can't live without you. The one

thing I remember being crystal clear to

me when I was 8 years old,

shaking hands with these two guys that

turned out now later in life, I know

they were actually dad's collectors.

I shook their hand. Oak Forest Country

Club parking lot. Sun was down in my

eyes. They had shades on. I asked her,

"Nice to meet you, sir. Nice to meet

you, sir." I remember my eight-year-old

mind going, you know, everyone that my

dad's making me say sir to. The one

common denominator besides being older

men is they're all fathers. And in my

head, I went like, "Oh, that's what

success is.

If you become a father, you've

succeeded." And that was in my

8-year-old, that was the math I did in

my 8-year-old mind, and it stuck with

me. So, the one thing I always knew was

I wanted to be was a dad. I meet Camila,

fall in love,

we make three children. I got to 17, 15,

12.

There's nothing

that I can put ahead of. There's there's

let me put it this way. There's no time

that I spend being a father that I do

not feel like that is the absolute best

time I could be spending.

You've had that since you were eight.

Yeah,

I've never heard that before.

I longed for that. I thought that was

when you made it.

Outside of wanting to be a father at 8

years old, which is fascinating to me

and something I want I do want to talk

more about because I think that's a lost

uh goal in society unfortunately is at

that age when you sort of in your

adolescent years if ID asked you at the

time what you want to be when you're

older in a professional context, what

what would your answer have been? 15 16

years old.

Washington [ __ ] running back.

But coming about 16, as I started to

find out playing football that I was not

the fastest nor the biggest, um, it then

became probably

I don't know if I really want to be

this, but I sure am told I'm a I'm a I'm

really good at debate. I'm a really good

debater.

I would win over arguments with the

family when it would be like where to go

or, you know, if I could go out and why.

I would have a great presentation.

Parents were like, "Geez." And they'd

give us the floor. Go ahead. take the

floor. Let's hear let's let's hear your

argument. And I they'd be like, "Damn."

And so the the word around 15 16 was

like, "You got to go to law school,

buddy. Go to go be a lawyer. Be be the

family of lawyer, man. God dang, man.

You're really good argue. You make great

arguments." And if it's not a great

argument, damn, you got endurance.

You'll just outlast people. And that

became the thing. So I started to enjoy

that. And that's where I was headed

toward towards law school. And I was um

I was reading about your youth exchange

in Australia

and that you'd struggled a little bit in

in class and you were skipping class to

read poems.

Yeah.

By Lord Byron.

Yeah.

So I just I I had graduated high school

at home in Long View in America. And at

18 I just turned 18. 18 in my family was

freedom. If if you hadn't remember this,

if you hadn't learned it yet, you ain't

going to learn it. 18 was now

no curfew.

You've got it. You've got it. Come on

when you want. Do what you want. D. And

I was rolling. I I straight A's. Mom and

dad are happy. I got a job on the

weekends and after school. I got 45

bucks cash in my pocket every day. I got

a car. It's paid for. I'm dating the

best looking girl at my school. Seeing

the girl at the other school. Oh, I got

to playing golf. I got a four handicap.

I've had two holes and ones. I got no

curfew. Talk about green lights. I'm

rolling.

I don't know what I want to do when I

get out of high school exactly, but law

school's coming up. But you know what?

My mom goes, "What about Shane student?"

Sweden and Australia were the two. And I

chose Australia cuz said speak English

and maybe El McFersonson's over there.

18-year-old mind, right? Thinking,

right? So boom, I go to Australia.

I was told I was going to be living on

the outskirts of Sydney, which sounded

exciting to me. It was not the it was

the outskirts, but it was three and a

half hours from there. And it was in a

very small town of population 305 people

of Warner Bale. And I remember pulling

up that gravel driveway with that host

family.

And when the breaks, they're like,

"Welcome to Australia, mate." I was

like,

"All right, not what I thought, but I

can make this work." All of a sudden, I

don't have my car. I ain't got my

girlfriend. I want to go see on the

other side of town. I don't have my golf

clubs. I ain't got money in my pocket.

And I got a 10 p.m. curfew even on

Friday and Saturday night.

I'm going to school again. So, I feel

like I'm going in reverse socially. None

of the friends at the school. They put

me in my junior year over there because

I went mid- semester and they wanted me

to go first half of the year with the

juniors so I could carry on the second

half of my year with what would become

seniors. So, I'm going I feel like I'm

going backwards socially. No one's got a

no one's got a car.

Their interests seem to be different.

The teachers are

not they're I'm I'm failing. They're

giving me Fs and everything. So I start

skipping this class, going to the

library and I find Lord Byron

and I got my Walkman and I remember I

had YouTube's Rattle and Hum on

cassette. I had Maxi Priest. Maxi

Priest, he's got a great Cat Stevens

cover

and

an NXS album which was an Aussie band.

Hutchinson as lead singer and those are

my rotation

especially Rattle and Hum. Rattle and

hum very socially conscious album about

oppression and and and silver and gold

man that's what we're all after. Oh

yeah. You think that's going to get you

to the higher ground? Oh, the evils of

of of you know, capitalism gone wrong

and things like that and freeing Nelson

Mandela and all and I'm worldly things

that Bono and you two were talking

about. We're like, "Oo, making sense to

me. I'm outside of my home. I'm in a

formal little island." You learn, you

know, to have an object first objective

look back at your own life. When you

leave what you know, you find out a lot

about what you actually know. And all of

a sudden, I'm seeing what my life was

as that kid who got the money and I'm

flowing. And I'm start look back going,

I miss that. But I'm also going like,

you're kind of good time rolling,

Charlie. You're you're you're popular.

Everything's going great for you. I

didn't have any resistance in front of

me, which was fine. But boy, now I got a

lot of resistance in front of me. I

don't have my friends to talk to. I got

questions coming up. This family's very

have very awkward relationship with the

family. They even wanted me to call him

uh one night said, "From now on, you'll

uh address us as mum and pup."

Which

was a siminal moment because many things

had happened up until that point that

were odd that I was going,

"Okay, that's just a a cultural

difference. That that's you, MCA. Hey,

stay open here. That's a cultural

difference." But I remember the night

they said that and it was the first time

and I needed it. It was 6 months into my

trip. It's the first time I went.

No no no no no no no no no no.

I'm not doing that. It was clear. It's

the first time I had clarity. Remember,

at this time, I'm reading Lord Byron in

the in the in the the the the library.

The principles come to now see me and

go, "Look, doesn't look like school's

going good for you. We have this thing

called work experience. Let's get you a

job. You won't get paid." So, I worked

at the A&Z Bank. I worked at the

barristers's office. I'm taking these

odd jobs as a carpenter and all these

different things. And my home life is

this over in Australia. I am getting

home. We have dinner at 5. We eat from

5:00 to 5:30. I clean the dishes. I am

immediately going back to my room. Take

a bath.

Listen to one of those three album and

cassettes. Read Lord Byron in the

bathtub.

Work one out.

Six nights a week this I'm running six

miles a day I've become vegetarian. I'm

eating lettuce freaking lettuce head

with ketchup on it. I'm down to 135

pounds. I'm pretty dog on sure that I my

job is to go to South Africa and I'm

supposed to I'm going to be a monk and

that's that's that's where I'm going.

Now I look back now and I see, oh, I

needed these disciplines to give me a

sense of measurement each day of, oh,

I've got my own thing going here because

my home life, I was lost, man. I'm lost.

I don't have any. I'm writing 16page

letters to myself and I'm returning them

with a 17-page letter.

Socratic letters to myself

about what? existential huge existential

questions mixed in with oh everything is

going great trying to talk myself into

keeping my head up you know what I mean

but I chose in hindsight I was like why

didn't you come home early

and I remember it very clearly when I

said yes I'll go become an exchange

student the ambassador the American

ambassador said sign this contract that

says you won't return till a full year

unless there's a fatal ality in your

family or you're majorly sick. And I

said, I'm not signing that. I'll give

you a handshake on it, man, cuz I'm

going over there for the year. I'm not

pulling the parachute.

And I remember

that handshake. And I remember what my

dad told me about what it happens when

two men shake a hand, that you don't

need a contract, that that is the

contract. And I had a certain honor with

that. There was no way I was coming

home. If I had come home, I'd have felt

like I did my dad wrong. So, while I'm

over in Australia going inside out,

imploding,

I start to find a little power in the

fact that, oh man, the harder this gets,

the greater the reward there's going to

be on the other side once I get out of

here. Cuz because it was non-negotiable.

I was staying the year. So, I never gave

my mind the the chance to go, well, you

could go home. Uh-uh. That was never on

my my proverbial mental table as a

choice. So I start to get identity off

the strength of making that choice. The

rest of the year became much easier. At

least some of the troubles I was having,

I was laughing at. I wasn't going to the

bathtub at 5:30 doing what I was doing

many years near many times a week, if at

all. All of a sudden, I'm kind of

starting to live a little life and

dancing with it going, "Yeah, man. It's

just not easy." But this is how it is.

We got it. got I'm writing

writing first poems in there that I

wrote.

And then life brings you back to Texas

to study law.

Yeah.

Which um

doesn't end up working out for you

because in your sophomore year you start

questioning yourself. I think based on

this little book.

Yep. That book right there is a gift.

So you're studying law and you start

questioning yourself because of

something you read in this book.

So, this book between my was the end of

my sophomore year. I'm headed towards

law school going to take my finals.

I was a study bug. I made A's across the

board.

And all of a sudden, for the first time

in my life, I go, "Dude, you got this.

You don't need to study this anymore."

And I shut my books. Had never done that

before. And now I got two hours before

my first exam. I look over and there's a

stack of magazines over here. Sports

Illustrated, Playboys, Penthouse. I'm

like, I don't like sports. I like women,

too. Let's check these out. I get them.

I flip through. Nothing. Nothing.

Nothing. After about the seventh

magazine deep, I look down

and this

book is laying there. And this is what's

facing me in this. It was in the middle

of the stack of the magazines. And I

look at I go, "The greatest salesman in

the world." And I said loud. I go,

"Who's that?"

I pick it up.

And I start reading first chapters about

forming good habits and becoming their

slave. And I remember thinking, well, if

you're going to go against yourself and

go to law school, you're just going to

say, "Yeah, I think I'll do it." That's

not that's not a good habit, man. Hey,

that's not a good habit for you. You

might be missing out on something. You

better create a new habit of just doing

what you think you were expected to do.

That was the thinking in my mind. And I

said, "All right, well, I'm going to

I want to go to film school.

I don't want to go to law school. I want

to go to film school

simply because the book mentioned that

having the habit of doing something just

because you think you should or can is

I even that part I I verbalized that

doesn't even say that directly just

saying I will form good habits and

become their slave and I was like if I

go to law school that's making me a

slave to a bad habit

and the bad habit being

bad habit being

you be good at it it's kind of what

you're supposed to do. It's all you've

ever kind of thought you were doing.

It's what everyone expects you to do in

the family. But remember, I'm stay

keeping me up at night. Ah, long 20s. I

don't know. I've also got this other

thing. I've got a friend telling me your

short stories are good, man. You can

tell a good story. We film making. You

could tell that sounds fun. Then I go,

my dad's paying for school.

I got to get permission from him first.

So I go, okay, what's a good time to

call him? I remember I planned it out. I

said it was Monday and I said, "I'll

call him now." I said, "No, no, no. He's

at work. Don't call him now at work.

He's he doesn't won't be able to

compartmentalize. This is going to come

out of left field for him. He's in the

middle of pipe sales, right?" I said,

"I'll call him tonight." And said, "No,

no, no. Monday back from work. It's a

stressful day.

Tuesday night, 7:30, second day of the

week, he's into the work week. He'll

have eaten dinner. He's on the couch

having a beer with mom."

Called him at 7:36 p.m. I remember the

number.

Hey Pop. Hey, what's up monkey man?

Listen, can I talk about something?

Sure. I said, ' Dad,

I don't want to go to law school

anymore. I want to go to film school.

And I'm like, little beat of sweat

starts to go down the back of my neck.

I'm like, here it comes. You want to

what? I thought he was going to go into

all this stuff about my ass. You think

I'm with that? You know, that can be a

hobby, but know that's not a drill job.

I thought all this was coming. And after

about a 5-second pause, he goes, I hear

this. Are you sure that's what you want

to do?

Yes sir.

Another long pause.

Then I hear, "Well,

don't halfass it."

And I remember just beaming, hopping up

just like,

"Yes, launchpad, man." And my dad not

only said okay in the way he said don't

half ass. It was also okay. Let's go big

boy. Own that [ __ ] Get some leverage.

Get some horsepower behind where you're

going. Go do it. And I remember to this

day and I've learned this later I think

from becoming a father. Part of what I

believe happened to him and why he said

that to me that way on that call

was the way that I asked him how I just

I wasn't really asking was I don't want

to go to law school dad I want to go to

film school. I didn't stutter. He heard

his son saying this is what I want to

do. And what I think happened to him in

that moment is what I think any father,

any parent loves is you you raise your

kids in a certain way. And you give them

a guideline, a ladder to climb, and

here's the guidelines, and if you do it

this way, you're most likely going to

have some success in life, and it'll

work out for you. And then when we do it

that way, we can be proud parents. But

what do we really want to happen when

our parents when our kids are out of the

house and they're on their own? We kind

of want him to call one day and go, "I'm

breaking out. I'm going my own way. I'm

going my own way." And as a parent, we

go, as much as it may scare us, we're

going "Yes."

I gave my kid the confidence and the

courage and the foundation to say

they're going to go their own way. And

in a way, I think every parent honors

and loves that moment. And I heard my

dad when he didn't hear me stutter, when

he heard me directly say what I said.

than that. I wasn't really asking him

even though uh I was out of respect

asking him the way I said it. I wasn't

asking him and I think he felt that. And

don't halfass it.

Don't halfass it. As a philosophy for

life, how important has that proven to

be since then? Because you've remembered

it and I've heard you

reference it as being important. Look,

I've it be it's become quite and again

not it's become more than intellectually

important or more than something I don't

you know I don't need to put it on my

fridge to remind me. Um it has become

important in relationships. It has

become important in work. It has become

important in self-help. It has become

important for my own spirituality. It's

become important for me as a father, as

a husband.

Relationship wise don't have asset.

What's that's turned into me is another

sort of theory I have and I call it own

don't rent. Going with an owner's

mindset into relationships.

Most relationships that we make, hire an

assistant or girlfriend, boyfriend, most

of them don't last the whole life.

But I believe that if you go into those

with the idea that I want it to be a

lifer, if this works out, hopefully this

is forever. Usually they don't end up

being that. But the owner's mentality

will give you that per you and that

person the dignity and the power to go

they we can be everything we can be in

this relationship. And if it doesn't

work out, we say it didn't work out. But

if I'm going with the renters's

mentality, I'll flip it. Yeah, I'll do

this for a few weeks. Yeah. All right.

this. I don't know if this kid's going

to make it. Maybe maybe a couple months.

You're not going to get the most out of

that person.

Well, it was like you in Australia, you

went in committed to owning that full

experience and not leaving. And there's

something really people tell me all the

time, especially married people, cuz I

ask them, I say, "What's why do people

get married? Why don't you just, you

know,

why do you need the contract?" And they

talked to me about how going in with

comm commitment itself

changes how you deal with the

inevitability of the messiness. The

messiness that you saw in your parents'

relationships and the and and challenge

itself like challenge as you saw in

Australia but also in your parents'

marriage is like inbuilt into all things

meaningful. And if you go with that

renter mentality the first red light

you're out you know what you do

something happen you're like oh this is

a sign of things to come.

Oh this is only going to get wor. No,

when you get married, you're like,

"We're owning this." Oh, my alarms, the

spider sense, my alarms didn't start

going off because we're going to work

through this. And if it does become a

habit, we'll work through it. Or it's a

one-off and I just got to put up with it

because they like to do what they're

doing more than I don't like them doing

that, which is another good measurement.

You know,

I guess it begs the question about the

the role or the benefit of having plan B

is because we're increasingly told to

have plan B in a relationship or plan C,

D, and E. And and in work, a plan C, D,

and E. And

options,

Yeah.

can make us a tyrant. Too many options

can make a tyrant of any of us, man.

You know what I mean? So can

conveniences, you know what I mean?

Yeah. And you when you don't give

yourself that option and mind you

there's plenty of divorces out there

that were necessary and were good for

both of them

problem. But I think there's more

divorces

because

someone had a little gave themsel the

out had the renters mentality.

First son of smoke I'm going to say

there's fire be easier to get out of

here. Path lease resistance. Sorry. I

think too many people quit. I think

that's that that's more of a problem

than the divorces that are ones that

turned out to be good.

So many people are at that stage in

their life where they're they might have

that bad habit that you described. They

might know that they're in a situation

which isn't for them. Maybe their

parents gave them this idea. Society

pushed them into that position. And uh I

think it's the uncertainty that keeps

them trapped. like the certain misery is

often much more appealing than the

uncertainty.

Yay.

And I I just want you you managed to to

make that change which is quite rare.

Well, what that reminds me of is I

started to become a little cynical which

is different than being skeptical. I

believe it we go from innocence when

we're born to naive to skepticism where

we're discerning and discriminate on

choices. We have judgment.

And then the next one is off the cliff.

what I think is cynicism.

The misery of cynicism is a hell of a

lot easier

than the optimism and belief of

skepticism.

Hell of a lot easier. It's a ah easy.

Bam. Put it down. Oh, that's hard. Bam.

I'm out. The individuality.

Bam. No, man. If it's hard, if I sweat,

don't do it. Uh-uh. Bam. Easier to put

him down. Hey, everyone just laughed at

my joke. See, it was easy. I was a life

of the party.

I think less respected once you leave

that situation, but you you you now

you're living in in in doubt and you're

let you're also doubting yourself that I

don't want to work that hard. I don't

want to see if I can make that work

anymore. I don't want to give that

person the benefit of the doubt because

it can be a lot of work and they're

going to [ __ ] screw up and I'm going

to go told you so. Nah. So, let's not

even try it. Or if I do try it, let's

just rent.

Let's do more than just sign that

prenup.

You know what I mean? Uh there there's

there's parachute we give oursel the

options in the parachutes in too many

places. We pull it early when we could

still be flying even though maybe rocky

flight. Pull that some [ __ ] Okay. It

was a safe move.

Got down to the ground.

What I was building didn't last.

Sometimes maybe it shouldn't. I think

most of the time it could if you'd have

hung in there, both of you.

Before we started recording, we were

having a little bit of a chat about a

thought that's been on my mind recently

about um how independence and I guess an

abundance of choice kind of links to

that might be leading people astray

because the most it appears to me the

most fulfilled people that I know

generally have a lot of dependence. The

culture we live in tells us to like be

our own boss, stand on your own two

feet, more people are lonely than ever,

less friends than ever, less likely to

have kids, less likely to get married.

And it feels like independence. Uh, and

those people often I I think are

struggling.

I think of so many of my friends, one in

particular that I've mentioned a few

times who

38 years old, living the life of

independence, like a picture of

independence.

Skyrise apartment, single, no kids,

freelancer, so not going to a team,

working from his home. And then, you

know, one of my best friends, 6 months

later, I see him in person, and he's

flown to America, been baptized, and

tells me that for 3 or 4 months, he just

couldn't get out of bed. There was no

meaning in his life. And so now he's a

interesting,

you know, strongly Christian man. And

we're seeing this, especially with young

men in particular, we're seeing more and

more of them turn to religion.

Um, and I'm wondering what's going on

there.

Yeah.

Let's stay on young men for a while. And

this does not exclude young women, but

for the sake of this conversation, I'm

going to block it over here and say

young men.

We want and need

to be relied on.

We want and need to be depended on.

and a sheer independent individual

lifestyle with nothing that you're

responsible for outside of what you only

need. Nothing. No other gardens you have

to tend to career relationally. No other

collective communal.

Oh, thank you. I needed that.

Who who relies on us?

How much do we need to rely on others?

There's another question and I don't

know that answer. It'd be fun to discuss

it. How much do we need to be how much

do we need to depend on others? I I one

of my self-reliance is at the top of my

value system and I don't think it is

contradictory to faith. I actually think

that free will and faith again are here.

As a believer, I believe that it's all

been written. And at the same time, I

believe God's going, I need your hands

on the wheel, man.

Hey, you're steering this, okay? Don't

just rely on fate. Too many people doing

that, man. I've had my agnostic years

where I was not believer at all fully in

self-reliance. It's on me, everything.

And

I think it was such a valuable few years

because I did need to call myself on

some [ __ ] I did need to say the buck

stops here with you McConn. I did need

to become a quit becoming such a repeat

offender.

You know, I was sinning which means to

miss the mark. Miss have bad aim

literally where it comes from an archery

term. To sin means to miss the mark.

When you think about it like that

becomes more practical, especially for

us agnostics and stuff. I was missing

the mark and it was time for me. I

didn't want to keep forgiving myself on

Sunday and then repeat and do the same

[ __ ] again Monday, Tuesday, Friday and

then go, "Oh, now I can be forgiven." I

was like, "No, man. Forgive me, father.

I know what I'm doing and I'm keep doing

it.

Cut the [ __ ] MCA.

Quit giving yourself that out. that

parachute even though you may have it.

Even though word says grace of God will

forgive you.

Yeah, you need to I needed to strongarm

myself, put my damn hands on the wheel,

look in the mirror and go, it's on you.

Cuz it is. At the same time, when I came

out of that, I was like, "Oh, those two

aren't mutually exclusive." The

self-reliance and belief, I heard God

applauding going, "Thank you. I need

more more like you that go, yes, I'm

responsible. The choices I make today

have to do with where I'll be tomorrow.

Yes, they have consequences. My choices

matter. Thank you. That's what I heard.

But it wasn't exclusive of having faith

and belief again.

What caused that period of your life in

your late 20s where you you started to

drift? Because at that time you'd had

your first success.

Yeah.

As an actor. Um,

I think I was living I was g I gave

myself the luxury of living that fully

independent top of the penthouse.

I got money. I decided to go check in at

the Chateau Marmo. I laid down $120,000

tab and said, "Let me know when that's

out."

Me and my dog

couple years bought a pair of leather

pants and a motorcycle. I told myself

for the next two years, if you ever

think you've had too many, order another

one.

Next two years, you ever go, "Oh, maybe

I should have a single, order double."

I exercised it in as healthy way as I

could, but I was sheerely independent.

And I did not I was swimming. I was

transient. It was fun. But when every

day is a Saturday and every night's a

Saturday night, started looking for a

little

I need to break a sweat here. I need

where's the resistance? Where's my I

need my Monday morning

literally and I need it here and I need

it faith faith-wise.

Did the loss of your father around um in

your 20s have a big impact on this sort

of unanchoring?

No. The loss of the father

dropped the anchor deeper and got more

secure.

That was 92. That was 5 days into

shooting my first film, Days Confused.

The loss of him

one, which was I didn't think he could

die. Obviously, he could and he did.

And it was uh took my mother to kill him

as you know from the story. They made

love on a Monday morning. He had a heart

attack.

That's not a bad way to go. I mean,

he called it. He called it. He told me

my brothers, "Boys, when I'm going to

go, when I go, I'm going be making love

to your mother." And damn it if he

didn't do it. But him passing away

after the shock in the morning

really woke me up

to go, "Oh, you don't have that."

Talking about parachutes again. You

don't have that one

being in your life that has your back.

That in my mind was above government,

above religion, everything. Oh, if I'm

really in a pinch, dad's got my back.

You don't have that anymore, Matthew.

So, all the things he taught you that

you kind of been acting like, it's time

to become those and put your ass on the

line. Me. I remember that's around the

time I carved into a tree. In the middle

of the night, I woke up and these words

were just stuck. And I went and I was

like, I be less impressed and more

involved.

And my father passing on, the world got

flat.

Things that I revered. Wow. Mortal

things that I revered, people, places,

all of a sudden my eye got level. Things

that I was patronizing and condescending

and looking down my nose at rose up to

eye level and I was like, "Time to

become a man.

Walk forward. Peripheral vision. Get it.

Own yourself. Walk forward with more

courage and start becoming the man you

want to be instead of acting like it and

putting it off.

Be less impressed and more involved.

More involved. Yeah.

What What did you mean by that and where

did that come from?

It came from we grew up hardcore on

gratitude. I'm I'm a very thankful guy

and and being thankful and having

gratitude is very important. But you

can't stop there because too much just

oh I'm so happy to be here. You're so

impressed to be here. Thank you for

having me, which we should have. But if

you live only there, I can't even we

can't be present and be involved in

whatever we're doing and do it as well

as we want to do it. You got to go. No,

thank you for letting me be here and I'm

supposed to be here. Now let's go. If

I'm even talking to you, if I'm here

going, "Man, I'm so happy to be here."

If I'm just happy to be here

and go no further than that, I can't

have we can't have this conversation.

I'm I'm not I'm not I won't be there

yet. I can't be grounded enough to have

have it right here. I'd be like, I'd

anticipate my thoughts. I', you know,

say something that may is only the

pretty stuff and not the ugly stuff or

oh, don't want to be mean. So, to be

involved allowed me to be more honest

and have more courage. When we're

involved, we're more honest and have

more courage to do what we're fashioned

to do how we're fashioned to do it. But

if we're only impressed,

you know, and I've had these moments

when I met the Cohen brothers, they're

my favorite directors.

I revered them. Had dinner with them. I

blew it and I fumbled over my wife. Oh,

damn it. Get back because I was nervous.

I was so happy to be there. I was so

impressed to be sitting down with the

Cohen brothers and not involved enough

to sit there and have a conversation and

I look back that night and I go that's

why they never cast me in anything. I

blew it that night and I've since seen

him and I was like that night we met I

want to do over going brothers if you're

out there I want to do

this is really transferable advice to

both me as a podcaster because I get to

meet so many of the people that I've

admired for so long especially being a

kid from the UK but also generally for

people just going to to job interviews

and trying out for things that you

really can inadvertently like lower your

perceived value just by being impressed

and not involved.

Probably won't get hired that way

either.

Yeah.

What's what's the hiring person want to

see?

someone who's respectful, but if you

hold them re in reverence, they're like,

you know, there's so many ways to say

it.

I don't need my ass kissed, man. I want

to hear I want to meet you. I want I

don't agree with me on everything. You

know, I want to hear you. Ah ah buck

back. And they had a reason behind it.

They weren't, you know, being negative

for or cynical or they weren't just

trying to be contrarian for contrary

reason. They actually had thought about

that and it was challenging. Huh. Think

that in relationships, girls, guys, what

do we like? Not the one that's like,

"Yeah, whatever you want to do." Want

someone goes like, "Oh, how about this?

I got this other idea." Oh.

Oh, interesting. He just reminded me of

a guy interviewed the other day called

Jonah. And Jonah, at the very end of the

call, young guy turned around to me and

said, "You know, by the way, I think you

should completely change this particular

company he was going to be joining of

mine. Completely changed the branding. I

don't think it's good enough." And I

paused and I said to him, I'll never

forget what I said. I said, I want to

say two things to you, Jonah. First, I

jokingly went, how dare you? And

secondly, that is the best thing you

have said in the last hour. Because for

me, he he did exactly what you did. He

wasn't impressed. He was involved. And

he challenged he told me to that

basically our entire brand for this

particular company needed to be changed

and redone. So like, how dare you? And

that is the best thing you have said

cuz it did exactly what you said. It

made me think, oh, okay, interesting.

This is who he is and he's of value.

Yay. Because people that are impressed

are much less value than those that are

able to, you know,

picture here. I mean, this picture said

a lot to me. Maybe it's just the the way

that you're all gathered around.

Oh yeah.

And this picture. So, that's my oldest

brother, Rooster on the right. That's

Pat Rooster's 10-year-old birthday

present, adopted. Went to go meet his

parents one time when he was 17. Check

his dad's hairline.

Um, that's me.

reverentially looking down on my father

who's holding court at the bar in the

house, Quail Valley, Houston, Texas.

Looks like he just got off the golf

course. Uh I have a t-shirt on. They

have golf shirts on. Looks like I didn't

play with them at that time, but there

were stories probably going on right

there about something that they had just

experienced. And I'm probably a little

I'm trying to, you know, I'm I'm

probably this conversation is probably

more between those two. And I'm going

like, "Oh, I wish I was there in the

stories." Which only happened for me

once I turned 18. I had some stories

before then, but that's what that look

at the reverence with which I'm

looking on

to my dad and he was old he was holding

court. He was a ham man. Him and him and

Rooster were were best friends. Um Pat

worked for him. I've got to have a

couple years with him before I went to

uh um

Australia,

a year with him. I know I had I remember

I had more than a full had a full summer

with him, which later on I found out

was their second divorce. I didn't know

it was I thought mom was on an extended

vacation in Florida.

So, he and I had a summer where we got

to hang out. And I got a story in green

lights about a night when I jumped the

bouncer.

A big right of passage to me.

Do you miss him?

Yeah, I miss him

creatively the most because he he I

found out later and I didn't know he was

doing this. Like I found out later in

life, years after he passed away, we

found all these old paintings in the

garage and we found this pottery that he

made and he loved he had collected art

and he loved charcoal paintings in

pencil black and white. I had no idea

he practiced art or or liked it. And so

when I'm reading a script or I'm

interested in doing a film, I still

think ah I would love to sh I would love

to have sent this to dad and go, "What

do you think?" and talked about, "Hey,

you know anybody like this? What do you

think of this character? What do you

think of the scenario? Hey, you know any

men like this?" Cuz I base a lot of my

characters off of people that I met

through him. I a whole lot There's been

many characters that are based on parts

of my brother Pat who was my hero

growing up. And there's a lot of

characters I've met through my older

brother Rooster, but all those came

through dad.

And I would love I miss having those. I

wish I could have those conversations

with him. I He would have loved the

other night we're at Toronto Film

Festival Premier and Lost Bus. My mom

was in it. She's 93. My little my son's

in it.

That could have been

He would have come to Santa Fe with mom,

you know. He didn't. Mom wanted Mom

wants to be on the stage. Mom, every

performance I've ever done, she's like,

"You did great, Matthew. I see where you

get it from." Right. Dad didn't want to

be on the stage. He could take the

stage, but he would have he would have

seen from the beginning me doing my

thing from the front row and been like,

"There you go, buddy."

So I miss him as a creative partner and

in sharing the declarations when you

have a red carpet and and hearing what's

your opinion on that. Hey watching

movies with me we never watched movies.

I miss that.

um

in his hands, man. He had these healing

hands and we would have been buddies by

now, right? I would have

philosophically wherever we had our

differences, he would have enjoyed the

debates instead of looking at me at 16

going, "Who the hell do you think you

are

talking

bucking like that?" Which is what led

him to go, "You're a great debater. I

want to be the family lawyer." But we'd

have been buddies because at 18 was the

freedom right of passage. That's when he

goes, "You ain't learned it by now, you

ain't gonna learn it." So we would have

I wouldn't have had to hear. This is a

time when I'm still hearing about the

experiences of yesterday and last night,

yearning to one day be able to be there

and be part of the stories. And we did

get a year together where we got to be

part of the same stories, which meant so

much to me. But I would have had years

of that. Do you think he would have been

surprised by the life you've lived

subsequently?

No.

My family's got a got an odd thing.

They aren't surprised by [ __ ] man.

Especially any of my success.

I mean, my brothers hadn't even

seen all my movies.

If I invited them to the premiere in

Toronto the other night, they'd have

found every excuse they could not to go

and wouldn't have come.

They don't disrespect or love me any

less for it's just like, man, we know

you little brother.

There's something beautiful in that.

Do you remember these?

Yes.

You wrote this roughly around the same

time in '92. Roughly actually when I was

born, funnily enough, I saw the date on

the top and thought, "Oh, that's a few

days off after my birthday."

Ah. And again, you put fatherhood number

one, but there's a a series of other

things on this list of your 10 goals in

life. Yeah. Which you wrote in 1992.

As you reflect on those goals, do you

wish you hadn't written any of them? And

is there anything else you wish you had

written?

No. That that that I wouldn't change a

thing about it.

10 goals in life. Become a father. Find

and keep a woman for me. Keep my

relationship with God. Chase my best

self. Be an egotistical utilitarian.

Take more risks. Stay close to mom and

family. Win an Oscar for best actor.

Look back and enjoy the view. Just keep

living.

I don't know what I'd add to that.

One of the things that you talk you've

talked a few times about is this idea of

like you needing resistance.

Yeah.

You've said it two or three times and

going back to what it is to be a man and

what it is to be a well orientated,

stable man.

Needing resistance.

Is that a goal to aim for? is that

I think it's just a necessary necessity

for

having more than just an individual

life

the top of the high-rise with money if

that's if you're successful to do that.

I mean I'm supposing that in whether

it's different words your friend went to

Christianity for this for a very similar

reason.

Yeah. It's like certain amount of guilt

is very healthy. It helps us keeps us.

It's boundaries.

Boundaries

without any shame, without any

embarrassment, without any guilt. Tell

me it's all just four-dimensional.

Where's the form?

Where's the Where's the art? It's It's

four-dimensional. It has no form. You

got to have gravity to have form. You

got to have some resistance to have some

form. You got to push off of something

to go somewhere. You got to be It's very

hard when you're just floating and no

gravity and no resistance to actually

pursue a north star. You have no

leverage.

You're floating. Where's the art?

Probably more anarchy than art. So

resistance gives form.

Heard a great artist say this.

Limitations

reveal style.

resistance, something to go or else it's

like green lights. If life's just

nothing but green lights, if you got no

yellows and reds, no reasons to pause or

crisises that stop you, resistance,

what do you just go in circles? Do you

run out of gas, get dizzy?

I don't see that. How do we evolve

or devolve

without resistance? Now, picking the

right resistance

is is an art in itself. It's

challenging. I've been clumsy with it in

my life. When especially when I got

famous and got success and enough people

telling me I love you and the caviar and

the champagne, I was like, "What the

[ __ ] Why me? I don't deserve any of

this. What? I I' I'd [ __ ] things up on

purpose just to say like I'd trip myself

running downhill so I could bloody my

own nose and go, "Ah, now I can feel."

Okay. Okay, now my heels are on the

ground. I need It's clumsy.

So, I don't think we need the kind of

resistance that we create that

can harm us or get in our way for

getting in our way sake because I've

come to learn and I think we all are.

No, when things are going really well,

resistance is gonna come. If you stay if

you stay with if you're if you have any

ambition, resistance is going to come.

We often see resistance as a form of

failure and something that we should

endeavor to avoid. You think about the

avoidance of like people building

families or even,

you know, many people consider that

we're living in a bit of a comfort

crisis. This is slightly a different

sort of analogy but most of the diseases

that we have today whether they're

diseases of I don't know the mind like

you know people feeling lonely and

isolated or physical diseases 80% of

Americans getting back pain but no one

in the had a tribe in Africa getting

back pain they're all a consequence of

us continually choosing comfort

y

which is a short-term friend but

long-term enemy and resistance I think

is um

is something increasingly we can choose

opt out of

it's a choice too I Can I hit a little

point that's on this subject?

It's called tips included. And I wrote

this based on participation trophies. Uh

um entitlement. How too much of

something can be just as harmful is not

enough. Uh how we all need good fortune,

good fate, and charity sometimes. But we

shouldn't rely on that.

Okay. Called tips included. All right.

When extra credit's included, credit

doesn't get as due. When more gives us

less, the exchange rates gone a skew.

When amnesty is offered going into the

crime, we're more bound to commit it

because there is no fine. We start

playing to tie instead of going for the

win. When participation is the trophy

for every cow in the pin.

If I stay on the porch because you

picked up the slack. When you look over

your shoulder, I I can't have your back.

If there is no curfew, we're going to

stay out all night. No tab at our bar.

We're going to get drunk and start a

fight. All these long lenses got us

losing our sight. You keep lifting it

for me, I'm going to lose all my might.

When a four-star duty suits a six-star

rate, we take our hands off the wheel

and rely on fate. Eating all we can at

the all we can eat buffet gives us a 3.8

education and a 4.2 GPA.

We steal from ourselves and get away

with the scam. What's the measure of

merit with less give a damn? Hm. These

unlimited options sure have me confused.

While all the conveniences are keeping

me properly lubed

in this red light district with the

[ __ ] of inflation, the ROI's math don't

pay for vacation. So, let's just admit

it. This extra credit is quite a fluffer

because when the tips included, the

service will suffer.

That's so good.

But it's about that the conveniences,

the long lenses, everything's like, "Oh,

and and we we've outconvenienced

oursel." What's AI going to do to us?

Talk about convenience. How much, and I

want to keep hearing studies. I wonder

if you have an opinion on this. How much

of you coming up with an idea and then

writing and rewriting it, thinking about

it, no, no, no, no. That's not ex Oh,

no. This is what I really mean and how

to get. How much of that is really

valuable to get it beyond just an

intellectual idea? More valuable than

just going,

"Ah, there it is." Cuz what comes out of

it? Incredibly impressive.

My hunch is that yeah, we can use it for

like uh signpost to help us. Oh, that's

good or that help. Thank you for helping

me organize. But there's a value to us

going through the sweat equity of

learning something.

How you how do you feel about it?

I mean ex exactly what you've said but

the the studies have just that have just

come out using different things like

chatbt have actually proven what you've

just said to be true that when people

use AI to produce a piece of work not

only can't they recall what they've made

but they also start speaking in language

more like the AI. So they start to lose

their own voice. But I mean yeah I mean

for through history people like Richard

Fryman the physicist has said the best

way to learn something is to learn it

and then to go through the pain of

writing it condensing it down to a

simple truth like you do so often in

your new book poems and prayers and then

sharing it with the world

and then getting the feedback and if if

the world understood it like you meant

it like that poem you just shared you

you you understand it that's evidence

that you get it

right. So I think AI is going to be

great for me saying something to you but

not learning something myself. And I

think if you know if you want to defend

creativity and innovation and the

ability to think, you actually have a

huge opportunity which is to go left

when everyone's going right.

Right.

And it goes to what you were saying

there. You were talking about be careful

when you mess mess with incentives. Like

be careful when you choose the easier

road. Be careful of the unintended

consequences. And AI is a prime example

of an unintended consequence of you

taking the easier road today.

Yeah.

And you know, I just actually made a

video about this, funnily enough, just

just warning my audience about

when something appears to be like a

short-term friend, it's usually a

long-term enemy.

Like when you know, when you choose easy

today, you choose hard tomorrow. And

there's always a trade-off,

right?

Do you think if you choose hard today,

you usually get easy tomorrow?

I mean, there's a there's obviously a

ton of nuance to this, but um

in many contexts, yes. So, for example,

my think of I was thinking of my father.

My father would never have he would

avoid conflict at all costs. He would

avoid the difficult conversation.

And when I zoom out over the the decades

of his life and marriage, I go, "Man,

that cost you big time."

You caught up with him.

Oh my god.

And me inverting that in my own life and

continually just confronting it head on

has had the complete opposite effect.

You never,

you know, like when you were talking

about being a young man and making that

decision cuz you had that voice in your

head saying, "Law might not be my thing

and you made that phone call to your

father."

Yeah. Like what what I hear you did is

like you realigned yourself to you. Now

if you hadn't made that call and you let

a couple more of those bad habits, you

would have got to 40 and been like, "Who

the [ __ ] is this guy? What is this

life?" You would have looked around and

said, "Who is she? Who are they? What is

this job?"

Right?

And that's that course correction

that I think requires you to do this the

slightly harder thing today. What do you

think?

I agree with you. That's the That's the

resistance that you're choosing. You

know look

I still got to learn how to take a

vacation

because, you know, we there's sometimes

when the wind's at our back

and we've earned it.

Mhm.

There's sometimes when it's easy street

and it's like, "Yeah, don't interrupt

this, man. This is a sweet ass song.

Trust that the hill's coming again.

Don't be so impressed with this and

don't what I have to do is don't fall

into when things are going really well.

I go, "Ah, there it is. That's the

main."

No, it's not. Not with any ambition.

It's not. Or not with life happening.

It's not. But my hunch, I want to see

what you think about this theory is

rather you shoot for an A and make a C.

It's rather better than shooting for a C

and making an F

now. So go for perfection.

Reality always comes in under it.

But in that moment when you see the

inevitable reality, the outcome, the

result, how quickly can we go,

okay but

I got so much more out of it, the job,

the person, myself, because I went per

for perfection

than if I'd have just gone for no dude,

just I mean, you know, just pass class.

It's again that little that owner's

renters mentality. Mhm.

And but what can be hard for me

sometimes is

it takes can take me too long to to to

come down from when oh it didn't hit

perfection and maybe it takes me a week

to go dude now do you finally realize

that of course you weren't going to get

perfection but you got so much more out

of it because you went for perfection.

Yeah.

So be pleased with reality because you

got a you got a good grade on it man.

That war that was that was good. that

piece of art was wouldn't have been that

true if you wouldn't have been I don't

like I say this all the time and I never

mean this in a in a in a in a

disrespectful way. I've never done a

movie or a performance that lived up to

what I thought it could be cuz I'm

thinking it can be divine

comes out maybe majorly inspiring may

speak to masses

even have some magic to it but only it's

divine

that's resist that's tension

that

yeah unclosed gap. And I think I think

everything that's ever been built that's

great or creatively brilliant has come

from someone who has a big a big

expectation gap. And of course the very

definition of that, you're never going

to close it. And actually the probably

the reason you then are motivated to

move to the next thing and pursue divine

again is because it wasn't divine last

time. Maybe there's still something left

on the table and that's

means you never arrive,

right?

You talk about arrival a lot in the

poems and prayers as well.

I I also was reflecting on your mother's

words where she at a very young age to

you positioned life as a dichotomy of

being humble but like know that you're

the [ __ ] and all those things you went

through and it's the same thing. It's

like strive for protect protection

perfection but also know that nothing

will ever get there and can you can you

be okay with that dissonance

right and that and there's a moment and

it's I think it's where the one of the

arts of living is if you if you are

going to prescribe to go shoot for

perfection there's that moment when

reality comes in when you had to declare

and the cards speak for themselves and

it's under

but you because you oversaw It

theory I got called oversee because you

oversee and expect the best this this

divinity out of people and and art and

of yourself and then it always comes in

under. How quickly can you go ah

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Can I ask you a question about that

then? If you had aimed for something to

be perfect and then it delivered itself

as perfect exactly how you had imagined

if if if at all possible,

would that have made you happy? Would

you have been

I don't know.

You're right. Um

would it have made you scared?

Both probably because look, I've had

moments. Let me let me let me tell you

one. uh in in in Africa. I'm in Mali,

Africa,

dogone country. Me and my guy who's a

buddy now, Issa. We're hiking from

village to village in the Banjiagara.

Each village is 10 to 15 miles away. I

went over there needing my anonymity

under the name of David. And I said I

was a writer and a boxer. Well, they

called me Da. Anyway, I uh um they

didn't give a damn about the writing

part, but they were very interested in

the wrestling part. So each village I

would go to start to catch up to me.

Strong white men named Dota. You want

to? And they love to wrestle over there.

They love to wrestle. It's kind of a

form of entertainment. The boys just

walk up and start wrestling. I get to

this one uh village one night. Benji

Matu

and uh I'm laying there. It's 14 mile

hike to get there. I'm laying on the

ground stretch and the village is all

kind of come up around and they're

talking and chattering. And all of a

sudden I hear this chatter and that's

sort of at me. I can just hear it. And I

look up and it's these two boys. They're

about 18 and they're boom boom boom

popping at me and I can be like and I

know enough in the tone I don't know

what they're saying because they're

speaking in bombat. I'm like are they

talking to me? And he goes yes. He goes

they uh uh

they are the wrestlers of the village.

They say they are the best wrestlers in

the village and they are challenging you

to wrestling match. I was like oh they

are. I was like

well they sure are talking a lot. I go I

don't know if they mean it. Do y do

y'all have this thing over here? We have

a thing in America where if someone

talks too much, they really don't. Man,

he goes, "Yes, we have this. We have

this." And just as that happens, you

hear the crowd scream. And I look up and

the two boys bam run off. Why?

Because the real champion wrestler of

the village, Michelle,

5' n, tree trunk legs, about 220, burlap

bag wrapped with a rope around his

waist. He showed up. He doesn't say a

word. He just stands over me, points to

me, points to himself, and points over

here. I look over where he's pointing,

and there's a big dirt pit.

My heart starts racing. There's the

challenge. As my heart's beating going,

"Oh no." I start to get up because as

this ear saying, "Oh no," I'm hearing in

this ear, "If you don't, you will regret

this for the rest of your life. You've

got to go do it. This will at least be a

great story to tell."

So, I get up. Village goes crazy. About

80 people have gathered now. The chief

comes out. I'm standing in the middle of

the pit going, "I'm not sure how this is

supposed to go. What are the rules?"

Chief puts his hands on our heads.

Michelle grabs me by the waist, mimics

to me. I grab him by the waist. Then he

burrows his forehead down into my

clavicle here, and I burrow mine into

his. So, now we're like two bulls like

this. And the chief puts his hands on

our head and then raises him and goes,

"Tot." And the crowd goes wild.

Ding ding is what? stop men. So, we

start going around, man. And I'm

thinking, okay, I got I get some

leverage on this guy. Legs are like tree

trunks. I'm like, "Oh, I ain't getting

him down low." So, we're scrappling,

grab him. Boom. I get him over. Bam.

Flip him on his back. He flips me back

over. I backflip him off my back at

some. He comes in, gets me in a freaking

leg lock that I can barely breathe. I'm

almost got to tap out from. I shimmy out

of that thing. All of a sudden, Chief

comes in, separates us.

I'm hyperventilating, man. Crowd's going

crazy. He's got a split. Michelle on

this side, me on this side. I had these

talismans that were in my beard. They

got two of them got torn out during the

wrestle match. I got blood running down

me here. My knees are bleeding. My

ankles are bleeding. I'm

hyperventilating and covered in sweat.

I look over at Michelle who's just

staring at me going

barely a glisten on him. And that's when

the chief goes and I go, "Oh [ __ ] here

we go." Boom, boom, boom. Grabs my

waist. Bop bop. Burls his head. I burl

my head. We're off. Goes around again.

Pretty damn good match. Strong. I

flipped him. Me, pin me. I We got up,

got moving. All of a sudden, Chief comes

in, separates us. Raises both our hands.

The crowd goes crazy. As soon as he

loses our hands, Michelle runs off.

Everyone sees him go. And they come in

and grab me and put Finny on their

shoulders. Da da d d d d d d d d d d d d

d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d

d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d

d d d d d d d d d

I go over now I'm a big man in the

village which means they give me the

best chair that has the least broken

sort of you know uh uh um straw on the

seat which means the village boy finds

me the biggest chicken and plucks it and

they cook it for dinner for me which

means they take me to the cleanest spot

in the river and I come back that night

we eat I get on the roof of the hut what

a magical day

I lay back.

I see the Southern Cross for the first

time in the sky. Like it was in neon

lights on a black backdrop. It was you

couldn't not see it. It was so bright.

Stare me right in the face. I laid there

30 minutes saw 29 shooting stars.

I'm going,

I might have a direct line.

I might be the chosen one.

Wow.

Just as I'm about to shut my eyes, I got

a little in my throat. So, I sit up,

go to spit out over the off into the off

the top of the roof.

Lugie plastered to my face. I forgot I

had put my mosquito net on.

And I was like, "Oh, perfect." Just when

I was thinking, "I might have the direct

line." I just spit a lugie in my own

face. And there became the humor. Now,

to finish off that story, the next

morning when I left the village,

remember Michelle, who ran away.

Mhm.

I got to the edge of the village about

to make the 14-mi walk to the next

village. And there, behind the first

tree, passed off the property, popped

out Michelle.

Not a word. looked at me, bowed, grabbed

my hand. He walked me the 14 miles to

the next village, got to the village

border, the next tribe, and walked home.

I went back unannounced six years later,

did the same trip, ran into the same

people, the kids had grown six years

old, everybody. We get to Benji Matu.

There's Michelle. He's had five kids and

he broke his hip, so he's got a limp,

right?

So, we all agree not another wrestling

match.

We have a great dinner that night. We

talk. We tell stories. They're speaking

bombat. I'm speaking English, but we're

just understanding each other's sort of

charades now.

Get up the next morning. We go to leave.

Find that same tree.

Out pops Michelle,

bows, reaches out his hand, holds my

hand, and 14 miles

to the next village.

Stop house. Turn around.

I asked Isa back then the first time in

99 after that night when I wrestled

Michelle and he walked me the first time

and I got there. I was like, "What? Tell

me about what happened last night. I do

all right." He goes, "Oh, no, no, no.

You do very well." He said,

When you accept the challenge, that is

when you were big men in this tribe. It

was not about the win or the lose.

You accept the challenge and then you

wrestle Michelle who's not only champion

of this village but of this village and

tree village back and you handle

Michelle. Handled was the word. No one

wants handled. He goes,

"You come back,

we make money."

Yeah. That's what he told me. Then I

went back six years later and had that

experience. And that experience

with Michelle, the respect we had for

each other. He walked me broken hip and

all the 14 miles to the next village.

You accept the challenge.

You accept the challenge. That is when

you were a big man in this village cuz I

was like they put me on the shoulders

man. What was it? He was like oh you

were a big man when you accept the

challenge. He said he said whole village

think Michelle going to have strong

white men named Da on back in 10 seconds

over.

But you handle Michelle not win or lose

handled.

But you were big man when you accepted

challenge.

Beautiful.

And then he's there six years later and

walks me the same way. I mean, I think

your question was on, you know, when we

when we know or how confident when we're

feeling like we're on the right path,

which that was a time when I thought I

was so much I was I think I might be the

you know, Lugie in my face for that to

me was God going, you're doing good, but

not that good, bud.

There's so many young men that are

struggling. When I looked at this the

stats around suicidal ideation and

suicidality, the the biggest killer of

men under I think the age of 45 is

themselves. And it's funny you said

earlier on about um to to be a young

man, you have to feel like someone

depends on you. And it reminded me of

someone on the show that told me when

they analyzed suicide letters, the the

prevailing sentiment across all of these

suicide letters, I think it was an

Australian study, was feeling like

people didn't need you or even worse,

they were better off without you

in in suicide letters from

Japanese almost

and it goes it was when so when you said

earlier that this you know we need

someone to depend upon us. It made me

think about that. And then you talked

about challenge. We need a resistance

and challenge to to aim for

and life is removing that that

challenge. It's it's removing the uh

Yeah. What are the new challenges

being on the internet, Tik Tok, social

like social social media. So if those

challenges though for now and I'm just

paraphrase this if those challenges may

not be the ones that and we hopefully we

find ways that they can actually pay us

back in a qualitative way.

Don't we need a challenge that's a

that's immortal

like

belief in God or belief in our better

self and how we are as a human and our

own character and our own dignity and

our relationships

in tomorrow in our past and our kids

that are not measured and paid for with

a local mortal currency

but are a pursuit that

keep us having qualitative and valuable

experiences that mean something to us

and give our life meaning while we're

doing whatever it else we're doing in

life that may not be giving us the

meaning or making us feel

I want to ask you something because as I

started to read poems and prayers you

sort of confront a lot of my previous

rebuttals to faith which I imagine a lot

of young people have which is around

like the science of it like what what

about the science what about proof and

evidence and you confront this head on

and how do you think about that because

you're you're someone that understands

the science and the studies and all

those kinds of things. But

I think one I think science is the

practical pursuit of God and like we're

talking about perfection. It ain't never

going to get there. But bravo for it.

Believe God loves a scientist. I believe

he does. Going thank you again like

hands on the wheel. Thank you for being

agnostic and going you can only believe

in your science. Thank you. You're

turning your way towards me. Not going

to get here but thank you for that

pursuit, that independence. To bring up

the word again.

It's

I don't know. That's the point. I can't

got conclude.

Those are nouns.

Believe is a verb.

Faith is a verb

in God or any of those other things that

we were talking about. Our better

selves, each other. Those are

a scientist doesn't necessarily doubt. A

scientist just says I can't believe in

something that until it's proven. And if

it's unproven, my craft says I cannot

believe. I believe that's what a

scientist looks at it. So I cannot

believe in

or maybe is I must doubt that which

cannot be proven. I understand that

that does not again contradict a

scientist or if that's your vocation. If

that is your philosophy and your life

creed of how you behave and believe that

does not contradict

belief

in God even though you can't conclude

that God exists.

I know plenty of scientists that are

also believers.

I don't know.

You know, it's it's it's I got a point

here and this is this is not a lowest

common denominator but also just a

another practical way

of

thinking about it. If you're like, man,

I don't I'm not I'm not I'm not for it.

Let's just go practical for a second.

Heaven or not. All right, tomorrow is

not today's measurement when the misery

is bad enough to the suffering.

Consideration is a privilege.

And that's part of what faith and

religion are for. To help those in

misery hang on to a hope that will most

likely not be served them in this life.

to sell them belief and faith that they

will be served in the next.

And what if there's nothing there, man?

What if there's nothing to hope for? No

next.

I don't know.

Either way, in misery here or without a

heaven there, not having any hope or

faith in anything is a certain way to

remain where you are forever.

But if you can find something that can

keep you going, something no matter how

small to look forward to and continually

have faith in and chase,

well then your life here will be better

than it is now,

heaven or not.

It's not an argument for faith. It's it

is saying though what I think is true,

what I believe is true is that to

pursue

that divinity even if you don't believe

in the author

it's not anonymous

but if you say no when you say that's

that's God I don't believe in that

author fine okay

find principles and ways of living and

approaching life yourself others

your neighbor and self. There's call

them ethics, whatever, morals, whatever

you want to call them, paradigms and

sort of law markers out there that's

going to helps in this life. Now,

you know,

get you out of the rut.

That's what this the science and the

studies show that people that are do

have a faith are happier, healthier, and

people can argue as to why that is.

name.

Hey, that's what I'm I try to be clear

in this that I'm not I'm not trying to

convert people to go, "No, you should

believe in God." There's plenty of left

to go. I get it with religion that

excludes a certain amount of people that

I cannot go there. I cannot go with I I

cannot purchase the belief that some

people of faith have, which is, well, if

you don't believe Jesus is the only son

of God and that's it, then you're going

to hell. I got too many friends, a lot

of them over there in Mali and around

the whole world. I'm like going, I can't

go as far to believe that they're all

going to hell. Uh-uh. If there even is

one. But it's when religion has become

exclusionary along the way that let's

remember we bastardized it. You know,

religion comes from the word, you know,

I love like I talk about sin earlier to

miss the mark. Religion is from the

Latin root relear.

Legar means to bind together.

re means again

religion is about restoration.

Got a bunch of spiritual friends who say

they're not religious and know what

they're telling me is they want unity.

That's what religion means. We

bastardized it along the way. We made it

a business. I don't believe that the

original creators of religion and

Muhammad and Jesus and God are going,

"Yeah, yeah, that's fine." No. There's

even stories in the Bible about going,

"No, that ain't fine.

But so we don't throw the baby out with

the bathwater. I just pose the question

to us to say

maybe it's not religion we're mad at.

Maybe we need to restore what that

means. Restore its original meaning and

live that way instead of just accepting

what it's become in so many places in so

many ways. Poems and prayers comes to me

because I started getting um

a little cynical myself. I started to,

you know, default objectify,

found myself objectifying people, kind

of looking down my nose at them upon on

hello, thinking, "Ah, they're probably

not going to make the cut at what they

do

without any reason to be thinking that

way." Um, I started looking listening to

the news and leadership and I'm going

wait a minute now. So, we're saying

if success

is the key, if success is the

measurement and you can get it by lying,

cheating, and stealing and still be

rewarded the gold medal.

We That's what's happening. Are we Are

we Are we ready to say that's okay? Are

we ready to say that's just how it is?

We have leaders in positions now that

are saying, "Yeah, just win.

Well, ju just just win. Just succeed."

But yeah, I don't care how you get

there, but you did it. Congratulations.

Come to the front of the line.

So, what are the ethics? I don't know.

What' the winner do? Well, but they

Wait, what about What about rules? Oh,

yeah. By the way, the rules, if you

follow them, you're a sucker.

Uh, I started to find myself going,

"Wait a minute.

I'm not ready to say.

That's just how it is.

I'm not ready to wave that white flag."

Are we

ready to wave that white flag and go,

"We can see that's what it is." Because

there's many reasons to do so. And so

I'm looking around at people and going,

I'm not finding things people to believe

in and I'm finding it harder to believe

myself.

One of the things that I I learned

through your writing in poems and

prayers, but also in greenlights is that

although those people might get to the

front of the queue and be awarded the

medal,

the medal it that you're awarded or the

queue that you get to the front of might

not actually give you what you want. And

you you start by sort of reframing

success which I think is a really

important thing especially for a young

generation especially for men who are

you know the first to want to get to the

top of the pyramid in certain pursuits

in life and actually from thinking about

what your your goal was of being a

father and how that's a lost pursuit if

you look at you know the amount of

people that are having children and um I

think that's a big question and actually

that's what your writing does for me.

really confronts me in a way to go,

okay, you can get to the top of the the

pile or you can get the gold medal, but

be careful what that medal represents

and a medal in what,

right?

What's relevant for what? We all want to

be relevant. Okay. Like relevant for

what? We want to succeed,

but when we succeed, do we act is it

worth it if we don't profit?

Yeah. You said, yeah,

you know what I mean?

If more we we're we're trained to go the

quantity

is the is the is the goal. That's it.

Well, then if that's sacrificing quality

Yeah.

or value, what we actually value

what are you really winning? You're

winning one of the mortal games,

you know. And mind you, I also think

it's worth talking about, and I don't

know the answers, is I'm sitting over

here in a privileged place to be able to

say that

someone's in misery. You want to talk to

them about projecting and sacrificing

today so you can have more tomorrow.

Those people are looking at you going,

I'm trying to pay my rent, put food on

the table. Well, lucky you, Matthew, you

get to talk about that. I'm not saying

I'm not saying that I changing my mind,

but I am conscious and I still need I

still have more to learn from talking

with people that are going like, man,

I'm don't I don't have the luxury to

think about tomorrow. The the other

thing that I is particularly front of

mind for me and has been for about three

to six months now is just this idea of

independence which has increasingly been

sold to people whether it's be your own

boss. More people are lonely than ever

before. Less people are choosing to have

families than ever before. This idea of

independence might have failed us. And

like all of my friends that are most

happy have the most dependence. And my

friends that are struggling now are in

therapy are having what I would describe

as an existential crisis have the most

independence. No one depends upon them

and they depend upon no one. And the

other sort of adjacent idea to this is

I'm writing this book at the moment

called I can't find God which is kind of

a reflection of my own religious

curiosity that maybe we do need to

ladder up to something. So me, my

family, my community, maybe the planet,

then something transcendent, something

higher. And people that don't ladder up

seem to be lost.

Yeah. If you go

from who we are

and make the North Star

God or the proclivity to imitate and be

more divine,

those things happen

naturally through the humility, through

the courage, through the

sort of peace of mind, wrong or right,

that oh, this isn't all there is. Let's

play the immortal game. So therefore,

risks are much easier to take. You're

much more courageous down here because

you're like, I'm not looking forward to

dying, but I ain't that afraid of it.

that you know that's that's a very

lifeaffffirming

feeling to have where I think

selfishness and selflessness are

are in bed together in that place

you know or humility and confidence

are hooking up you know they're not this

they're not even this I think they're

they're that when

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When your children come to you, Matthew,

and ask you, they say, "Dad, you know, I

want to be as a success in my life

defined in whatever way I define it."

You've been able to climb to the very

top of the mountain that you aim to

climb in terms of your professional

achievements.

Is there anything transferable? you

talked about hard work earlier that

people might miss

um when they see such a remarkable

career because I I look at your career

journey on paper and I go you've you you

did it but then you did it again and

again and again and again and again and

again and again at the very very highest

level and I'm like is this was this

natural talent was were you given

something in your DNA

and I know it's hard to sometimes self

analyze but what is it

what is that.

So I think that

and what what I do try to say some

version of this to my kids when we talk

about their futures is look and I talked

to a lot of young people about this if

you

first if start with what do you have an

innate ability to what's in your DNA you

know I wanted to play basketball for

years I wanted to dunk

it ain't my DNA bro I was I'm never

going to dunk no matter how hard I

worked at I was never going to dunk

That's what I wanted to do. So look at

what do you have an innate ability for?

I wanted to be Washington Redk running

back. No, it's too slow and not and not

powerful enough. Well, I didn't have the

innate ability. So what do you have the

innate ability for?

Then what then are you willing to pursue

an education for, work for, hustle for

that for which you have an inability

for? And if we're going to talk about

making a living,

is that which you have an innate ability

for and now have educated yourself, your

talent to have a talent for is that and

how can that be something that the world

demands

cuz it's supply and demand?

Boy, if you can end up doing something

you got an innate ability for, plus you

you become really good at it and you

learn the craft and the world demands it

and you can sply it. There you go. But

we don't always

some of us have innate ability but we're

not willing to we don't work for it. We

don't improve our skills. We kind of

rely on what we got and it kind of come

middle of the field and it

sometimes I don't have the ability for

it but I'm going to learn a new craft

and I'm going to hustle at it and then

actually when we get good at something

we kind of can start to go oh I didn't

know I loved it. I didn't like this

anymore but I like it now. It starts to

feel good to do over and over.

and you aimed at becoming a you know it

it says it in here it says uh winning an

Oscar for best actor etc etc you

accomplish so many of these goals that

you had and then there comes this point

in your life where you seem to step back

from being this romcom

star and it's almost as if a dream you

once had failed you and you reorientate

yourself once again to something

of more substance

so

the decision to make to maybe to answer

a little more the last question. I

I've when something's not feeling like

I'm completely

in the pocket on it on this getting it

on the screws if it and also maybe I am

but it's not translating. We talked

about earlier art that translates and

you hear the same thing back you're like

ah that's it. That's the communication

of good art. Maybe I'm feeling like I'm

busting my tail at something, but I put

it out there and it just goes, "Huh?" I

don't know. Sometimes it's bad timing.

Sometimes just I was chasing the wrong

was chasing up the wrong tree there. At

least maybe I chased it for me, but no

one else gave a damn. That can that can

happen.

I've been

fortunate to if something's not sitting

well in my

soul,

even if I'm pulling it off and I'm like,

"Dude, you're the romcom guy. You are

the You're the go-to guy, man. You're

number one on the call. You're the you

took the baton from Hugh Grant and ran

there. You love doing They're fun. Geez,

they pay great, too. I can line them up.

I was getting quantity, but I wasn't

getting the quality. I was like going

kind of feel like I could do it

tomorrow. And I was like, "Oh, nothing

wrong with that. You've worked to get to

that point to where you feel like you

could do it tomorrow." I was like,

"Yeah, but I don't I need some

resistance. I need I want to find

something that scares me.

Mind you, at that time,

I've fallen in love with Camila and

she's pregnant with her first child.

What's the thing I always want to be in

life? Father. So my life is like, "Oh

yeah,

the roof is raised and the basement is

lowered and the width is wider, man. I'm

feeling more, crying more, laughing

louder, feeling more painful, all of it.

My emotions are life is vital."

And I said, "Okay, what I want to do is

dramas, but Hollywood won't offer me one

no matter how big of a pay cut I take."

So I said, "All right, if I can't do

what I want to do, I'm going to quit

doing what I've been doing." So chose to

boom go to the ranch in Texas. Camila's

pregnant. Told my agent no more romcoms.

Blah blah blah blah blah. Don't know how

long that's going to last.

Made that decision with Camila. And we

said, "Look, you know, going to make

this decision. There's no telling how

long we're going to go without work.

But if we're making the decision like

Australia, it's non-negotiable. We're

not going back on it."

And you get offered a lot of money in

that time.

Yeah. There's a great story.

So nothing comes in for months and I'm

starting to think like, "Oh my gosh, I

might need to find become a teacher.

Might need to go back to law school.

Got to find a new vocation. I just wrote

myself a one-way ticket out of

Hollywood." This offer comes in for this

action comedy.

$8 million offer. I read it and I said,

"No, thank you. That's the stuff I'm not

doing." I come back with a $10 million

offer. I I'm not reading that again. No

thank you. come back at a $12 million

offer. Guys, tell him I said no thanks.

I come back at a $14.5 million offer.

I said,

Let me read that again.

I'd read it again. It's the same words

that were in the $8 million offer that I

said no to, but it was better written.

It was funnier, man. I could see myself

in it. This is could be I could make

this work. Yeah. Anyway, I ultimately

said no. And I think

in my theory, I don't have any proof of

it, but I think that me saying no to

that $14.5 million offer

a year into me leaving and saying no

more romcoms. I think me doing that sent

the message got around kind of through

Hollywood. Oh, McConn is not bluffing.

What the [ __ ] he up to? Something

about that was like, oh, he didn't just

recede.

He's got a plan, but he's just he

stepped out of Hollywood. He's turned

out 145.

Oh, he's not rent. He's not for rent,

which

interesting.

Oh, maybe a little more attractive.

Well, you know what would be a who might

be a novel? Great idea for this drama.

Lincoln lawyer for this killer killer

Joe for Mud for Dallas Buyers Club Magic

Mike True Detective

MC.

20 months after I stepped out. I didn't

know how long it would go. That's how

long it went,

all of a sudden those offers came in

and I was off and I grabbed a hold of

all of them I could and did them and

love doing them and and uh yeah. Would I

would those have come if id have never

stepped out? I can not even kind of say

maybe. No. No, they wouldn't have.

So interesting how success can become a

prison. It goes back to that sort of

marginal

slow.

[Music]

Yeah.

And then you had to do something drastic

to realign.

Yeah.

Turn down $14.5 million which and trust

me my brothers were like most people

going what is your major malfunction

little brother? You know, but

I remembered how I felt that night when

I had when it came to me and it settled

and it came up and I made the covenant

and and and I prayed and swore on it

with Camila and we said that's the

decisions made. No matter how long this

goes, we're not going to go back on the

decision. So, a lot of these stories I

think come out about endurance

in a way. The Australian story, this

story are two that remind me of like I

could have pulled the parachute at

sensibly

at any time after the first three months

in Australia. If I tell you the details

of that, you'd be like, "Dude, why

didn't you come home after a year out of

the business maybe

and my agents tell me, I haven't even

heard your name in four months."

[ __ ]

why go start a new job? Just go back.

Those jobs are waiting for you. the

romcom jobs. You were doing the waiting.

The through line for me as well is just

you in these moments you knew who you

were and were not, which a lot of people

don't. And you have to kind of know who

you are and are not in order to turn

things down or to accept things that are

for you, right?

I'm going to go one step

previous to that.

I don't know if I could say

I knew who I was.

An easier place for us all to begin and

I think where what's more true for me is

that these were times when I go

I knew who I was not

and I don't know what the I kind of know

what I want to do roles that can

challenge the vitality of my life. you

know, stereotype. We could say we call

those a drama. But

wasn't like I had the script written.

This is the one I want to do and no one

let me do it. You know what I mean? So

it said no to that. In Australia, I knew

that I couldn't be the guy who goes,

I'm out of here, man. Because I shook on

it

and was having a sneaky suspicion that

the longer this penance went on, the

greater the gift would be on the other

side. Did I trick myself on that?

probably.

Did I was I telling myself that here as

a was I posting that on my proverbial

fridge and repeating it like a mantra?

Yes. It took a while to get down into

No, I actually believe that to be true.

You have a good relationship with

uncertainty with not having the branch

to swing to perfectly.

I hope so. My wife's out there. If

you're seeing this, she's probably like

he needs to work on his relationship

with uncertainty,

[Laughter]

at least in a professional context. I

mean,

most people end up stuck because they

just wait for 100% certainty about the

escape plan or the the next

Well, may maybe that's because

there are every role I've ever done, I

went into it at some point and felt like

I was 100% certain that this is going to

be great. And not all of them were

great.

So I've had been a part of things that

had the best laid plans

and turned out to be like, "Oh [ __ ]

that's all we did to that." I've been

part of things that had the best laid

plans and turned out to be like, "Damn,

all right."

I've been a part of things that were

under financed and didn't seem to have

the foundation, but boy, we turned him

into something.

Dallas Buyers Club. $4.9 million in 25

days.

Shot that movie.

Quality on the screen for that much

money

in that many days.

Jean Mark and all director, we turned it

into that. We turned it into that.

We went into it. But even that, that's

another fun story. That was never real.

I just we just said the producers and

myself once John Mark came on the

director and the producers and my we got

in a room and said we ought to just say

we're doing this in October and so we

left out of there and started telling me

yep doing it in October. There was no

money. My agent was like you keep saying

you're doing it in October. You're not

doing it in October. I was like yes we

are yes we are dude there's no money.

You're not buying it. Yes we are. She

kept saying it. Other scripts were

coming in. He's like can you read this?

It's going. When's it going? October.

I'm not why I read it. I'm not doing I'm

doing Dallas. Dude, you're not doing

Dallas Spires Club. There's no time.

There's not a date set. There's no

movie. Would you please read something

for that time slot? No, cuz we're doing

Dallas Spires Club.

Why were you so

We just

we just kind of I'm not going to what's

the word? We didn't manifest it. We just

didn't flinch.

Don't have

we didn't stutter and we were all in

alliance and saying the same thing. So

all of a sudden people started to

believe it.

Has that proven to be really important

to believe what you say and to say it

with a conviction? Because it goes back

to what you the phone call with your

father.

Yeah.

You didn't flinch.

Something seems to happen when you don't

flinch.

Yeah. I mean,

it's different than fake it till you

make it.

You know,

words are momentary. Intent is

momentous. Amen on that.

Yeah.

Intent is momentous.

Yeah. There's a poem there on that same

thing. And I think it's it's where I I I

I write that in response pushing off of

where I think sort of a woke cancel

culture overcompensated

where we bam hammered you for the word

and didn't give the people to go. Wait,

do you understand my intent?

Intent is such a lust.

Especially

Especially

with people who are ignorant.

Mhm.

And didn't know better. They're right in

here. I wish more not I don't want more

crimes but I wish more of the crimes

were about from ignorance because it's

the ones it's it's it's it's the bad

agents that are going oh I know good

from evil and I'm going to do the evil

well that son of a [ __ ] I'm sorry maybe

we do need to go in an alley and work it

out but the ones go I didn't I didn't

know that person needs some amnesty go

well okay or given the a chance to talk

about it

when we forgotten

how to say

sorry dude I didn't that's what I me I

did not know that's how you were going

to I didn't mean for it to land on you

like that's not how I how I meant it

have we forgotten to do that

and aren't we getting toolled by the

lawyers in the world to say just

litigate it dude sue him whoa what

happened to hey man my bad stuck my foot

in my mouth man I bogeied

Sorry. Now,

if I come back and do it to you next

week and the next week after, shame on

me. Repeat offender, man. You can

forgive me, but don't trust me. Go. I

need some I need some reparations. I got

some work. I need some rehab. All right.

But my first job on talking about

forgiveness and the words and intent, my

first job, if I've done you wrong and

I've come asking for forgiveness, you've

open if you're going to if you're going

to forgive me, you've opened it up

first. And if you forgive me

and you believe that I mean I I I'm

truly sorry,

I'm do my best not to ever do that

again. If you believe that and then you

forgive me, first order of business is

for me to change the behavior that I

have so I don't have to come say sorry

to you again.

That I think we miss sometimes that

sometimes people go, I'm sorry,

forgiven. Oh, cool. We're even. All

right, back to it. And all of a sudden

you're like, you did it again, dude.

Have a little reward. I thought you were

going to course correct. You know, I've

got to course correct the offender for

the first order of business for the

offender to go, I'm going to do what I

can not to have say I'm sorry to you

again.

I think there's a more obvious incentive

to misunderstand people now, especially

when you there's likes and follows and

retweets and play. Misunderstanding

someone, there's huge incentive in that.

And I think maybe that's created a

culture of that being the default is to

mis trying to misunderstand you because

trying to misunderstand. That's

interesting

because there's an incentive. I think

all human behavior can be tracked to

incentives

that and that's not the resistance we're

talking about.

No no you know that's

come on

trying to misunderstand people

a real want and need. Yeah I think

you're right. I'm asking this out to the

world and myself trying to misunder to

be controversial. What? To be

it makes me significant,

right? Because you own something and you

Yeah. So you trumped my gesture.

Yes. What about What about

Yeah.

It proves, you know, I'm almost

piggybacking. You talked about

structure. I'm pushing off your

Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Dude,

comp. We We've got to compare before we

contrast. Double down on somebody's

affirmation. Make a point there about

make the point make the positives plural

and the singular's negative. Block then

you can block evil and the negative's

path to prophecy. If we can double down,

I'm not saying be foolish and say

there's no negatives in the world.

There's no pain. There's no evil. No,

let's admit it's all out there and then

choose to go. I'm going to talk about

bad [ __ ] in my past in the past hence

because that's going to block its path

to prophecy and the positive things that

are working the truths in my past. I'm

going to talk about them in the present

and the future tense because we're going

to keep that ball going. That's going to

be a verb. Let's make those a verb.

What season of life are you in now,

Matthew?

Season of life.

Well, the last eight years, I've really

come to love fall.

I grew up, I was a summer guy.

No shirt, no shoes, bright lights,

extrovert. It's all good. Everything.

Don't [ __ ] about no shoes cuz there's

somebody out there with no feet.

I've come to like fall because

I think I need I I I

don't I'm interested in so many things

that my hunch is to not take on more

campfires, but to keep putting logs on

the fires that I've built.

And to do that, the clouds that come

with fall

just nip ambition in the bud just a

little bit. They put a little bit of a

roof. I kind of like I'm not as big of a

fan of the 30- foot vault ceiling right

now. I I like that 10-footer, that

8-footer. I feel ambitious looking

laterally instead of my god the four

dimensionally. I'm

looking for the dreams and the poems and

the prayers

to become the reality and I'm I like a

little bit of shade.

Matthew, we have a closing tradition on

this podcast where the last guest leaves

a question for the next guest not

knowing who they're going to be leaving

it for. And the question that has been

left for you is, "What is your greatest

weakness? What is your greatest

strength?"

Well, let me talk on this wall cuz a lot

of times they seem to be the same damn

thing. A lot of times people are like,

"Dude, your greatest asset is risk."

And I'm like, I think that's why I got

to work all more. I think I need to be

taking a lot more risks.

You think you need to be taking a lot

more risks?

Yeah,

that'll surprise a lot of people. Give

me the context though and the color.

I'm successful.

I got a home.

It's got a gate. I got a security guard.

I got three kids. Got a wife.

All right. Secure this. Keep that log on

those fires going. That's the main

thing, man. If you do that, if you do

that, there's nothing better you can do.

Well, hang on a minute. You can do that,

but you still need to engage. What are

you going to become a live-in father?

No. Kids need to see you go to work.

Need to come with you go to work. Need

to see you and your mom going places

without them.

Engage

in the world. Go find out some new

things. Learn some new things.

Whether that's the physical frontier or

the mental frontier.

take more risk there to learn. As Mark

Waters, director of Ghost Girlfriend's

Past, told me one time, "Oh, MC, you're

never wrong." I was like, "Thank you."

He goes, "But there's more than one way

to be right."

My

my greatest one of my greatest assets is

that when I am certain on something,

I can commit to it. It can be an engine

and a momentum to take me a long way. At

the same time,

I can leave unnecessary shrapnel

with people I care about from my own

certainty

because I'm so committed and obsessed

with this truth that I've crossed that I

can block out an alter alternative

approach to it because I don't have the

confidence to go, "Oh, yeah, let me see

that." Because I still think, "Oh, if I

see that, I'm going to lose some of

this." And I'm still working on that.

It was so beautiful to read poems and

prayers. It was surprising and beautiful

at the same time. And uh I said to you

before we started recording, it's one of

the first times that I felt like I went

somewhere else in a while. And I It's

funny cuz it was three or four days ago

that I read the first um couple of poems

and then I went back a couple of days

later. And I think in part because

things had changed in my life in those

couple of days.

The meaning of the poems were different.

The meanings of the prayers seemed to be

entirely different. You also have this

incredible book which has been one of

those smash hit bestsellers of the last

decade, Greenlights. And I know that one

of your good friends, Bill McRaven.

Yeah, Admiral Bill.

Admiral Bill McRaven.

I always make you call him Bill, but I

always go Admiral. Yeah, Bill McRaven.

And he was somewhat part of the

inspiration or he inspired or was a

catalyst moment you seeing him speak.

It's a friendship

that he and I have started to build and

as

is at a at a time when I was seeking out

male mentors

after your dad had passed.

Well, this is more in the last five

years, six years, seven years. I think I

wrote that four years ago, something

like that. And he always took my call,

always took time with me, always

just without judgment shared great

wisdom with me. And without even knowing

he shared it, I think just if you ever

get a chance to speak with him and spend

time, he's a he's really got it going

on. He's got it he's he's he's really

got a wonderful perspective. Um,

are you able to share what you were

seeking guidance from him about?

No, the main thing I would keep private,

but then it was also we we we talked

about, you know,

fatherhood,

husbandry,

you know, um he's and he's got a great

sense of humor and all that stuff, too.

And and how, you know, making plans and

seasons of our life and how much to rely

on those and how much are they just

like, "No, that's just an old parable,

man. Doesn't really go like that." You

know what I mean? Um, and I'd give

details, but I wouldn't I feel like I

might be speaking out of school if I

did.

I actually, um, we reached out to Bill

McRaven.

Oh, you did?

And he wrote this wonderful letter for

you.

He said, "Dear Matthew, I remember

clearly the first time we met. I'd been

told that Matthew McConnA was going to

be in the audience at my talk. I'd long

been a fan of your movies, but candidly,

I wondered more about the man than the

movie star. The man I met that day, the

person I've come to know over the past

10 years, has exceeded all my

expectations. You are as genuine as any

person I know. There are no heirs about

you. There is no pretense. There is no

Hollywood ego. There is just McConnA.

You treat everyone with respect. I have

watched you with your league of fans and

never once have you failed to shake a

hand, give a hug, take a picture, and

thank them for their kindness. I have

watched you on the sidelines with your

beloved look horns. When you are there,

the entire burnt orange nation feels

better than the game. In victory, your

enthusiasm is infectious. And in defeat,

you are gracious and respectful,

representing all that is good about the

university and about Texas. I've watched

you give back to your school, teaching

the next generation of actors, writers,

and poets. I've seen your work as the

minister of culture, bringing fun and a

Texas flare to everything you touch.

I've watched you after the tragedy in

Yaldi. It tore your heart out. And while

others stood on the sidelines wondering

how to deal with those unspeakable

horrors, you headed straight to

Washington. Few people I know could have

brought both Democrats and Republicans

together to make a difference. But you

did. And then you stood in front of the

entire nation and pleaded for s sanity.

Through your compassion, your

determination, and your love, you have

truly made a difference in so, so many

lives. I have watched you with Camila

and your children. You're as fine a

father and a husband as any man I know.

Every child should be as lucky as your

kids. I know your mother is exceedingly

proud of the man you have become.

Finally, I want to thank you for your

friendship, your unwavering support, and

for making my hometown of Austin some

place special to live.

Take care, Bill McRaven.

Wow.

Thank you, Bill.

A that's that's that's something else.

You know,

I did speak to him

before I went to DC after Ualdi

and just the wisdom with

the context, the setting,

do you see politics,

but also

in that

being aware aware and understand those

things.

Go your line, man.

Go your line.

And um

that's that's that's beautiful to hear.

You know, I did not know

that he that he uh thought all those

things about me, and that makes me feel

good. But I look forward to giving him a

a hug over our next cup of coffee or sip

of tequila, whatever it is.

Good man. Good, good, good, good man.

Bill McCraven, thank you. And everything

he says in that letter is what I've had

reflected to me by everybody you've met

and know. We've got some mutual contacts

and those words ring true. And this is

why I think you're a great um role model

for for me, but also for young men like

me who are aspiring to figure out all

this stuff with all the modern

temptations and you know different paths

we can pursue and all the options more

options than ever

and a

less clear clarity on why we should

pursue resistance and family and faith

and all the things described in this

letter of the the empathy, the grace and

the kindness and the respect of others.

But you stand forth as an example for

why all those things are the most

important things. And thank you for

that, Matthew. Thank you for being a

role model to me and so many young men

like me and so many people, not just men

like me. And thank you for writing a

brilliant book, poems and prayers, which

everybody can go and get now. Um, and

just like me when I read it, it might

just take you to somewhere else.

Somewhere else you might rather be and

somewhere else you need to go. Thank

you. Beautiful.

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