Sara Vienna - Taste, Meaning, and How to Stand Out in an AI world

These conversations, wildly so, go so far from like a superficial like amazing like make it pop, make it pretty, like brand, fun, bling bling motion down to

philosophy so fast for me cuz I can't not think about all of these things all at once in the moment that we're in.

That's a small subset of design, but there's endless opportunity for innovation and new patterns even within that tiny little bucket. If you don't have a little bit of [ __ ] being talked about you on design Twitter, I feel

like, have you really made it?

This is the greatest leveling of the playing field of all time.

I am a staunch believer that the people who know how to get the outcomes from these tools are the ones that are going to make the things that win.

Welcome to Dive Club. My name is Rid and this is where designers never stop learning. This week's episode is with

learning. This week's episode is with Sarah Vienna who's the chief design officer at MetalAB. So, we're going to talk about the responsibility that designers have to shape this AI world

that we're entering and what it's going to take to make people feel something about the products that you design. Now,

this is also one of the more raw conversations that I've had on this show. I mean, we do not hold back about

show. I mean, we do not hold back about the current state of the industry and what it feels like to be a designer today. But before we get into all of

today. But before we get into all of that, I wanted to learn more about their recent work for Windsurf and what it takes to inject meaning at the heart of a brand.

Whether you like it or not, it has been a brand that's been really incredibly wellreceived. And so we're stoked to be

wellreceived. And so we're stoked to be part of it and stoked to be a partner with brands like that who really want to say something that's differentiated than all of the, you know, trends that you

see out there and try to do something that feels decidedly different and opinionated. Whether or not design

opinionated. Whether or not design Twitter likes that opinion, you know, we we've gotten some incredible feedback from people we have so much respect for, but there's always kind of the

naysayers, too. And one of my favorite

naysayers, too. And one of my favorite quotes is this looks like a gay wedding threw up on tech or something like that.

It was like amazing. I love that. You

know, if you don't have a little bit of [ __ ] being talked about you on design Twitter, I feel like have you really made it, you know?

Yeah. You messed up. You got to have at least a little bit of push back. It has

to be just a dash of polarizing.

Just a dash. This is not me. This is the team who made this. the team like really work to understand with a client like what does it feel like to interact with the product? Like what do we really want

the product? Like what do we really want to communicate? What is the difference

to communicate? What is the difference of using this tool compared to others?

And how do we make that promise in a brand that's visually exciting that feels fun and wearable and fresh and like something you haven't seen before, a little bit cheeky all at the same

time? And how do you make it also feel

time? And how do you make it also feel sophisticated enough so people trust it and trust our process with it? I do

think that a big test of a brand is like does it feel like something you could wear and people would wear. We're

getting so much demand for all of the swag, which is awesome and you know being able to have that product really pay off the brand promise and the experience and how you use it is going

to be really exciting and it's going to be exciting to see how it evolves as the news evolves with uh where they're going. So yeah, great great partner to

going. So yeah, great great partner to work with and we're stoked for him.

Real quick message and then we can jump back into it. I know a lot of you like me are animating in Jitter. So, I have some good news. You can now speed up reviews by sharing and responding to

feedback directly inside of your files.

Each comment is timestamped and also synced across the canvas and timeline so it's always in context and you can even at mention people so it's easy to bring the right teammates into the

conversation. It's just another reason

conversation. It's just another reason why I love animating in Jitter. and

comments are officially live for everybody. So you can head to

everybody. So you can head to dive.comclub/jitter

dive.comclub/jitter to check it out today. So I've been playing with paper for image editing and it's pretty legit. They support all of

the best models and everything exists on a persistent canvas so you can see your generation history and easily fork from old ideas. Just select anything you

old ideas. Just select anything you want, type your prompt and generate variations. And one of my favorite parts

variations. And one of my favorite parts is you can then rightclick and vectorize that creation without having to use a separate tool. It's a huge unlock for

separate tool. It's a huge unlock for creativity and just another reason why I'm so excited about paper as the next great design tool. You can start using

it today. Just head to dive.com/paper.

it today. Just head to dive.com/paper.

Okay, now on to the episode. You know,

you talk a lot about the importance of meaning. So maybe we could go a little

meaning. So maybe we could go a little bit deeper either with Windsurf as example or other client projects because I think my goal is to understand what it

means to you to inject meaning at the heart of a brand or digital experience.

I think that's what a lot of us are, not to be emo, but that's what we're searching for, right? Like where do I spend my time, my attention, my money?

Your attention does equal money. and

what does it do for my life? Does it

make my life toxic or does it make my life better? And as an end user right

life better? And as an end user right now, you still get to decide that.

Therefore, when we're designing brands and products, they need to make meaning for people on the other side of that interaction. So, it's really about

interaction. So, it's really about tapping into what do these people need and understanding what people need is definitely an exercise in understanding

how to properly do the right amount of research, just the right amount, right?

And then interacting with people daytoday to understand their specific use case and then figure out how do you take and pattern make that into something that's an experience people

will love. How will people love it?

will love. How will people love it?

You're developing meaning through hitting on something that solves their painoint. But at the end of the day,

painoint. But at the end of the day, it's just a simple human truth. And

finding that simple human truth for your audience, no matter where they are, no matter who they are, is how you make meaning. But you can't just rest on

meaning. But you can't just rest on that. You have to constantly be curious

that. You have to constantly be curious about the way that those users and audiences are changing and evolve your product in real time with them because if you don't, you'll get left in the dust.

I love that. like this co-articipation, especially in a world where I feel like every single time I open up Twitter, there's a beautiful brand redesign launching. So, how do you stand out in

launching. So, how do you stand out in that sea of beauty and polish?

Yeah, it's overwhelming these days because there's so much craft out there and talent and also you kind of want to take a look at it and go, okay, well, what's beyond

that superficial layer and what's happening in the background that really delivers the value? So, it's one thing to have like a super sexy visual design, but it's another to have the entire

experience pay off end to end, whatever that and that's where the form and function conversation really comes in.

You got to get people in the heart with like, okay, I identify with that. I want

to see what this thing is about.

Visually, that resonates, right? Like

what they're saying to me resonates.

like I they get me, but the other side is really paying off. Like in their head, are you delivering on the value that their brain is basically going to

ascribe to you or not ascribe? And so

it's the challenge of the head and the heart and user experience that I think designers are so incredible at tapping into. And that's why I'm super excited

into. And that's why I'm super excited for us right now and what's happening in our space because we inherently understand that and we're champions of it. all of the time. That's why we've

it. all of the time. That's why we've earned a seat at the big ass boardrooms, right? It's because we have been

right? It's because we have been championing getting deep down to that seat of deeply suited user needs to be able to deliver something that actually can drive value for a business. Those

two aren't always directly aligned, but when you can find that, you can really hit and find at the end of the day that is product market fit. The word

resonating is still sticking out to me too because I'm even thinking about the different ways that you can create something that resonates with people.

And I like that you jumped right to the user experience and more of this holistic picture of what a brand is and the products underneath that umbrella than even something that is a little bit

more identity focused because I think almost the opposite of what a representation that would resonate with me right now is like you know how you see too many of the like founder letters

now on websites where it's like three paragraphs and then like the signatures below and it's like that was really cool in the beginning. It's like, wow, they're speaking directly to me. And now

it's like it feels cheap. So there's

almost a novelty that you have to find, like what's the unique way that we can express the underlying human truths behind this product and brand. And that

to me is what makes it so challenging and what brings me to the point where when I see this new release, I'm like, "Wow, they tapped into something like there's something here that really speaks to me." And also, what's going to

speak to you right now might not be what spoke to you last year. You know, maybe last year you were like into, I don't know, like minimalism in your digital life and kind of chilling out and trying

to go touch grass as much as you could.

And right now, people just want to have fun again, you know, just want to have fun. Like you look at a windsurf or a sunno and you know, somebody maybe somebody doesn't like that color palette. Maybe somebody

thinks we went too far with A, B, or C and how we executed the look and feel, but you cannot deny that you look at those and you're like, "Okay, that looks like I'm going to have some fun." There

are other times where you have to totally pull back and not lean into fun.

Maybe it's about being a lot more restrained and auster about it all for the right kind of experience. But that's

again getting back to that like what is that deeply seated need that you're trying to address and how do you make that resonate from an interaction and visual perspective.

Is there anything that you all are doing at Metal Lab to make sure that you don't get swept away with the trend duour and going too far into what the visual expression of fun is for that you know

two three month period on Twitter.

That's such a good question. I think

that the teams naturally do that. Like

um I'm a nerd for my team all day.

They're self-regulating, which I mean like on our Slack, it's like here's this trend and somebody will post it, right? And then somebody will come in with a hot take and be like, I'm

so over that, right? Like, oh, really?

Tell me more. No, it's not this that's the great execution of it. It's that.

And they'll just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. and seeing that interaction and

boom. and seeing that interaction and being super kind to each other about the critique but really hard on the work.

Whether that's work on the outside or whether that's our work, it's just a natural muscle that most people have.

And you know, some people are a lot more chatty than others, right? Myself

included. But seeing that interaction kind of means like you can see the team self-regulating and developing a taste profile together which is really cool

too because then it's like the collective is raising their craft together while there are some big voices and like you know a lot of our really I

don't like using words like rockstar or whatever but like our designers who are like you know everybody looks up to chime in and like everybody's developing that POV be together. So, it's pretty cool.

In some ways, bad taste is more exemplified in putting out a trend that people are already tired of than putting out something that is actually just kind

of bad, you know? It's like it if you come across as chasing and just a little bit behind, it's like, ah man, this this isn't it anymore, you know? And so,

especially as I feel like these cycles are just accelerating, right? Like it's

becoming so easy to remix and draw inspiration and we have this public town square where everything is shared and it's very tempting to chase trends and

very very easy to create something that becomes outdated quickly.

You can almost be like well do I care?

like if it's well executed and if it makes sense for what you're trying to communicate and the principles of the design, do you care if you used a trend? And I would say if well executed,

trend? And I would say if well executed, you probably don't as long as it still, you know, hits with that end user. But

you also have to be flexible and ready to change. If you do have a brand that

to change. If you do have a brand that leans far trend into something that shifts it, if for example the landscape is changing, you know, and I do think

that with how fast we're moving right now, brands are going to become a lot more generative than pixel perfect. And

brands are going to have to break out of that, you know, neatly tidily documented PDF that was very expensive, especially back in the day, to become something

that is a lot more malleable based on what they need to communicate and what really matters for their end user while still keeping at the core of who they are. And I think that that the best

are. And I think that that the best design leaders have to walk that line all the time and should be. That's why

the job isn't easy.

Let's go a little bit deeper there, Ven.

So on this shift from pixel perfect to generative, what are some of the ways that you think that that evolves the regular practice of design?

If you're deep on design, Twitter and X, you're seeing people who are just sharing left and right parts of their process, what works, what doesn't is definitely a good, the bad, the ugly,

right? And we have a lot of that sort of

right? And we have a lot of that sort of mentality of kicking the tires at Metal Lab, which is so fun to see because it's almost like a new school version of Dribble. Oh, you did that with this. Let

Dribble. Oh, you did that with this. Let

me go show you how I did this with that.

Right. And

that's really fun to me to have that camaraderie, but also just like a little bit of like competition to see, you know, it will change our game as designers. But then it's also about like

designers. But then it's also about like how are we creating experiences that are no longer about that rigid design system that had to be just so in order to conform to the

brand. because the results that we're

brand. because the results that we're going to start seeing that are coming out of these AIdriven experiences will have to accommodate that in a more fluid way. I don't think we've hit that yet. I

way. I don't think we've hit that yet. I

don't think that the design community has hit what that means. A lot of conversations are happening around like right we're going to bust out of that chat interface, right? And so the question is like what's that application

of the interaction that makes the most sense? chat is natural language and so

sense? chat is natural language and so natural language is what is working right now for how the technology has advanced but you know my bet is that we're going to continue to push those

boundaries of that interaction but it shouldn't be just because you can what is the reason that we're breaking these patterns and then how do it becomes something that feels even

more natural than what we do today and how we interact today. So something we definitely think about a lot and always challenge the right client who's willing to go there with us.

Yeah. There's like this pressure to be novel when all of the technology is so novel. Like it's a really interesting

novel. Like it's a really interesting tension between the most novel technology that we've really ever had.

And then the manifestation of that has just been chat which is like that was AOL Messenger was like how I was raised on the internet. You know I've been doing this interaction my entire life.

And I do feel like as an industry, we put a lot of pressure on, well, we got to push past, we got to push past. And now

there's been a little bit more of a settling where it's like, well, I this is kind of nice. A lot of ways this does make sense. And so there's less of a

make sense. And so there's less of a race to break out. And I feel like we're experiencing a little bit more intentionality.

We're such visual creatures at the end of the day, you know? So it's kind of like, yeah,

you know? So it's kind of like, yeah, you want to challenge that. Like one of the designers on my team literally had her design patented and I was like hats

off to you as a designer. That is and I can't tell you what but like that is an amazing thing to have done in your career. You deserve this. You came up

career. You deserve this. You came up with this interaction and this way to display X Y and Z. Amazing on you. Like

I was like I hope you sit in that for a minute and celebrate that is truly novel. And so I think we're looking for

novel. And so I think we're looking for that next thing, you know, and for as much as we might bag on the Tinder swipe, like we're still searching what for what that next interaction is.

Totally.

You know, for um user experience that becomes something that becomes like second nature and like your muscle memory already learns it and knows how to interact. So it's it's also fun,

to interact. So it's it's also fun, right? Like I think it is about chasing

right? Like I think it is about chasing the next thing for a lot of us and that is part of how we find purpose and meaning in doing this work and I think

that that's okay like knowing that part of that process is to potentially try fail not always hit it but when you

do it feels amazing. Like that's why I think a lot of people stay in design even though it's a really weird time for design.

Oh yeah. I mean, if we were just assembling patterns that we know work forever and ever, I would be out. You

know, that's why I'm so I'm so grateful for AI in many ways because it does introduce a lot of new requirements.

Even something that's come up on the show that I've been reflecting on recently is like the way we think about loading states is totally different now.

totally different in an AI world where there is a level of latency that requires some creativity and you know you don't know how much you're even going to load into the page and it's

like okay that's a small subset of design but there's endless opportunity for innovation and new patterns even within that tiny little bucket and so I think you're right like the best

designers are the ones that are going to at least try to push past the known conventions and if you do fall back to what works great that's totally fine But man, I I I don't want to live the life

of of someone who is just pulling from all of the same patterns at all times that I've been using my entire career.

Totally. It is the idea like in our process of like AI doing our laundry, right? Like we I I didn't get into this

right? Like we I I didn't get into this field to push stuff around. Like I'm not saying that like people who love that and love like pushing pixels and production design like that's amazing

and we still very much need it, right?

like it's still a needed thing, but it's being able to use a tool like AI to help that process along faster and making it more efficient and even like you know hopefully someday when it gets good

enough like cleaner and tighter to the spec that needs to be shipped, right?

The thing about all of this that I love is it opens up more space for creativity hypothetically. And that's what's really

hypothetically. And that's what's really cool about using AI in your workflow and how it's going to change our workflow in the future. So then it's like, okay,

the future. So then it's like, okay, well, if I've got this extra creative time, what am I going to do with it? I

am going to obsess about that load state. I'm going to sit there and think

state. I'm going to sit there and think about what is this brand, what is it trying to say to users? How do I educate people? How do I add transparency in the

people? How do I add transparency in the background for what's going on so that people are informed and so that they trust the results that they're about to see? There's so much even in that one

see? There's so much even in that one state that can be impacted in a way that we haven't even, I think, cracked into.

So agreed.

Why not? Like it's a it's a whole new world you can build for people if you've got that kind of headsp space.

I want to get into the whole new world piece. Maybe first I kind of want to

piece. Maybe first I kind of want to drill into how you all are working because something that you mentioned earlier to me was how you were doing a lot of explorations around different

applications of AI. So are there any learnings that you're able to share there or different ways or workflows that you've used to move the needle with AI? A lot of people are kind of getting

AI? A lot of people are kind of getting their paces of what it looks like from like a generative perspective. You know,

I've seen some people do some really cool stuff with like divergent visual design. So, really like going as far as

design. So, really like going as far as you can even as far as to make your client uncomfortable far of like could it be because you can get there so much

faster. And so where you know usually

faster. And so where you know usually it's like we're designers we like rules of threes. We usually present three

of threes. We usually present three directions that we start to whittle down into one. Maybe you're you're trying on

into one. Maybe you're you're trying on the size of 10 directions and then you self-edit internally before you show those three winners instead of spending

your time on the three. Now, do we have to be really careful with that? A

thousand%. Like you've got to be so critical about the outputs that you're getting. And if you don't have somebody

getting. And if you don't have somebody at the helm who knows how to prompt and who knows how to edit like hell, then you're going to just get like crap on crap because that's what I mean the

models are trained off of the entire internet like let's be honest. And so

you're going to get that like absolute like dissolution of quality and creativity into something that's a big nothing burner. And so what you have to

nothing burner. And so what you have to do is figure out how do we use these tools to get you into that way where you can really shape it towards something that's super opinionated. So those are

like early days. But then there's even execution that's been really fun. How do

we hook up NCP to story book and like have our design systems function so much faster? I'm not quite getting this

faster? I'm not quite getting this animation right, so let me go talk to Claude about it. There's so many ways that are sprinkled into the process that

our team is using. But it's funny like was talking with my team today about this but we've got processes but sometimes people will be like oh my gosh sometimes it feels like anarchy like

there's no process at metalab there's a lot of reasons why that might feel that way but I am allergic to saying like this is the process and this is so right like that's silly to me I think that some of the best designers in the world

work at metal lab and they should be able to define what they want to use and when but also we got to really make sure that we're shouting out when something's working because we might run any you

know 20 projects at any given time or whatever and if project A isn't talking to project Z they don't know that that's working well so that's the big importance of people sharing their work

learning from it and then people making those connections to where those things are really hitting and working that's so important because I'll also say there's so much out there on the internet that

it's like a lot of noise but if you can filter down the noise with like a bunch of people you trust. I think you can move a lot faster, which is like that's what I'm seeing right now in the way that we're working with AI in our

process.

I mean, if you try to codify workflows at this point in the scurve of AI, like you're just you're going to fail, too.

You know, it's everything is so crazy.

There's a million ways to do things for the first time. It even kind of goes back to what you were saying before where you talked about Twitter as the new dribble, which is totally true, but there is this different element where

there's not just a curiosity in the end output. There's a curiosity in, well,

output. There's a curiosity in, well, how'd you get there? You know, someone will post an artifact and in the comments will all be like, "What tools did you use?" It's been so long since we

asked that question continuously. You

know, like even that alone is a really fun time to be a designer. One of my favorite parts about this job, it's so corny, but it's like you make internet friends. Like that's how I met you. Like

friends. Like that's how I met you. Like

we're internet friends, but then all of a sudden we're talking about things that like really matter that like will change our lives as designers.

And when you find that right group of people or one person even, it can really open your mind and inspire you towards your next big design problem. And I

think that's so important in what we do to mitigate burnout because having that shared community aspect of this all is at least for the majority of designers I

know critical when the going.

Okay. So then let's talk about like the community of design at metalab then for a second because you talked about using AI for diversion exploration. I think

we're probably barely scratching the surface of it, but it feels to me like potentially the most obvious use of AI for design in the future is just being able to make a thing. I also operate

kind of on spectrums of concepts. And

so, I don't know, maybe in the future I could say, take this one design and now here's my spectrum. I'm going to label my opposite ends and now I want five on that spectrum. Now I want 50 on that

that spectrum. Now I want 50 on that spectrum, you know? So it's like to me who knows what that's going to look like in practice but it's going to be a thing right like we are going to be able to iterate at scale with AI and in that

world especially when the output might just be meh sometimes it's very cliche but still true to talk about the importance of taste in that world. So

maybe as you as a design leader, how do you think about the different ways that you want to invest in this collective taste profile of the design

group at MetalAB?

Invest is a really great word that you use because it means putting money towards and time towards things so that people can develop, right? And talent

development is so important for designers because I think it's what actually keeps a lot of designers happier in their job because they feel like they're still learning. They're

still pushing their craft. They're still

pushing things that they didn't think were possible. And so that is about

were possible. And so that is about making sure that there's money to go kick the tires in the new tool if you want or a training you want to do if you want to go figure out how to make the

most of Ry as an example. you know

there's so much to your point around the process and optionality of how you execute things and so giving time and space for that. So one thing that we do

very um decidedly is we give people time off for those types of days like it's part of your time off package but you have Fridays to be able to do that too

and it always makes the work better. Can

I quantify an ROI on that? No. when I

don't want to but I can quantify the value of design and when we do that and invest using your word in learning new tools and developing our skill sets

there's always an impact to the value of design and the things that we make I know that the answer is more nuanced than this but you did kind of take it into this tinkering and trying new tools

and workflows direction which kind of is at the heart of my answer too and I don't know every once in a while I kind of get a pulse check of like am I going too hard on this one thing, but man, I just keep coming back to curiosity in

the tools as one of, if not the best investment you can make as an individual. And maybe there isn't some

individual. And maybe there isn't some policy at your job that's, you know, creating space for you, but gosh, being able to fight for space to just try new things. You mentioned drive, there are

things. You mentioned drive, there are 15 other tools and it feels like this gap is kind of accelerating between what is possible and what is kind of the

table stakes and baseline of where we're comfortable. I don't know. I hope people

comfortable. I don't know. I hope people don't get left behind. I guess

if I were to liken it to something that maybe most of us know, like remember when you were learning like your first piece of software, whatever that was, right? Like I was always team

right? Like I was always team Illustrator, not Photoshop, by the way, for a very reason because I was obsessed with the vector-based control that I could have when designing apps, right?

So there's that which um maybe we need to have t-shirts made or something, but then it's going to show our age and so there we go. I remember when I was learning both of those tools, I was so

overwhelmed by it, but also so inspired.

And also, whenever I found like this happy accident or I found a quick key that did something that I didn't know about or whatever, it was like this huge unlock of possibility again, even though

you were holding space with the fact that you're also overwhelmed by it all.

And I think that maybe you didn't learn on Photoshop and Illustrator, hello fellow kids, right? like but like if you did learn if you were learning on Sketch

or you were learning on Figma, you had a learning curve there too. And if you're still in design and still calling yourself a designer, you probably got through that that curve. And I think

about that same thing applied to AI tools today. is just another step in

tools today. is just another step in that process so that you don't get left behind because there's a lot that we can control in our lives and our careers and then there's some things that we can and

so like do we want to accept the things that we can't control but work with them and working with AI tools for me is like you know you can come at me I guess but

like this is this is part of our jobs now and will continue to be so I like the idea of owning a little bit more of your own destiny and picking it up and even If you fail, you got to keep trying and then you'll be inspired by something

you make.

Owning your own destiny is a really good phrase.

Mhm.

And I think that that is something that I have been trying to put out into the world more and more, I guess, because I think there are people who are naturally inspired. Maybe they work at more

inspired. Maybe they work at more forwardlooking companies. They have

forwardlooking companies. They have someone like you as a design leader who's really pushing them to explore and tinker. Great, right? Check box. Like

tinker. Great, right? Check box. Like

they're going to be okay. Then there's

also people who maybe are exploring out of desperation. The fact is there's

of desperation. The fact is there's probably people listening to this right now that maybe they're in between jobs, they're still doing interviews and you feel this pressure. You have time and also it's like my gosh, I got to get

ahead kind of thing. Great. You're

probably going to be okay. I worry for the people that are in roles that aren't pushing them that feel quite legacy and they're very comfortable, you know?

Yeah, that's my concern. We're still in the first inning, right? So, like that gap I was talking about, it's accelerating.

What the heck does that gap look like two years from now where you have a group of people that are really gung-ho about making use and experimenting with this new tech and then you have people

who they never got pushed and they never needed to get pushed and maybe what they were doing has come to an end and now what? You know, I feel like part of my

what? You know, I feel like part of my job now is just like banging the drum for for those people. Thanks for sharing that with me because you take on a hell of a lot of responsibility in what you just said. Like you're taking

just said. Like you're taking responsibility for a lot of humans which I think is noble and amazing and why create a thing if you're not making people better. Like but I just think

people better. Like but I just think that first of all that's very cool that you you can't you can't have a platform and not say you know it's like I didn't set out to talk about AI when I started

this. I didn't even think about AI. And

this. I didn't even think about AI. And

then I was like, oh, I'll do a few AI episodes. And then I was like, shoot,

episodes. And then I was like, shoot, this is changing the world.

And now I'm like, I can't think about anything other than 5 years in the future and how different the world looks and how little we're talking about it and how unprepared a lot of people are. And I'm like, I hope

I'm not getting annoying, but we're going to talk about this, you know?

Totally. Well, and and you might lose some listeners for that reason cuz they're over it. But the people who are listening, you know, especially the ones who really trust you are going to take your advice and like figure it out for

themselves. But the one thing that I

themselves. But the one thing that I learned, um, my boss said to me, because sometimes this can feel like really like inside baseball for a lot of us, right?

He's like, "Everybody's on their own journey about understanding how AI is going to impact them." And you know, it's because like I'm all kind of out here and we're using it and we're

building it and it's a little bit more second nature for me right now and in our teams, but there is the adoption curve that we really need to think about. And um there's amazing people on

about. And um there's amazing people on all sides of the adoption curve. And you

can also understand why the lagards are where they are. I was nerding out and explaining to some teenagers last night, which I thought that it was like a my son's friend's birthday. They probably

thought I was insufferable, but they were You are the fellow kid.

Oh man. Like we were talking about AI and I was like, "Have you guys heard of the lites?" And I was like, "Well, back

the lites?" And I was like, "Well, back in the Renaissance days, blah, blah, blah." And they was like, "Oh my god,

blah." And they was like, "Oh my god, mom, get out of here.

Gloss over."

Yeah. But um a couple of them were really interested in it, right? One of

them wants to be a filmmaker and think about like what her life is going to be like trying to become a filmmaker with AI in the process. But

she wants to know what is it and what does it mean for me? What it might mean for my workflow. She's still going to be a creator though. She's still going to be a maker in whatever way.

Yeah.

Who knows what it's going to look like when she, you know, gets to college in a few years, but she's going to be able to really make waves cuz she's curious about it all.

And that curiosity is everything, right?

It's funny. You you were given the AI field to your teenagers. I was doing parking at my church. I was volunteering on the parking team and I'm working with this kid who's 22 years old, just

graduated. He's a financial analyst and

graduated. He's a financial analyst and I don't remember if he even asked a relevant question, but sure enough, I'm here just rambling at this kid about AI.

And uh I can't help but talk to people who especially are in like the earlier career recent grads and try to get them encouraged and excited because it's like this is the greatest leveling of the

playing field of all time, you know?

Like I've been doing this, I'm not going to date myself, but like a long time, right? Like I've been designing products

right? Like I've been designing products for a long time. All of these tools are just as new for me as they are for the 21-year-old fresh out of school.

Yeah.

And there's nothing that I'm being handed really. Yeah, maybe I have more

handed really. Yeah, maybe I have more Twitter friends, but I still got to figure all this out and what this means.

And we used to joke about the designers who, you know, maybe were a little bit slower to adapt styles and auto layout and Figma. And that just feels like just

and Figma. And that just feels like just a little it's so minuscule now, you know, like the jump that we're at all of a sudden is like if you're curious, you are just as qualified to make the jump

as I am.

And I forget who it was was, but let's please credit this person, but it was like the song of the high agency hero.

Like [ __ ] around and find out like don't die. like um founder mode, like what

die. like um founder mode, like what else, you know? And

that's one of my favorite tweets of all time because there's so many versions of that, you know?

Yeah.

And we're in this world where we're saying like, "Okay, why don't you [ __ ] around and find out?" But like maybe we don't move fast and break things. Maybe

we be a little more intentional and careful about what we're building and making while we shape this world that we want to live in. And that's like a big thing that I care about is making sure that like you got to think about the

implications of the things that you're making and designing and how they impact society, right? And it's just it it just

society, right? And it's just it it just is like you can not talk about it or you can put out in the table and just say like let's design a world we want to live in and what does that look like?

And it's different for everybody. And

now we get into ethics. And I'm not going to become an ethics professor. I

would do a terrible job at that. But

what I will say is it's like our design decisions matter um more than ever. And

so really getting thoughtful about how we make the most confident design decisions that make a better world are is like part of what I think about all day long.

What do you think's at stake here? Like

if you zoom out big picture, we're designing this AI future. What are the stakes?

The stakes are high. They're really high for creative people. They're really high for an everyday worker. When you think about the multiple versions of potential

futures that you see in science fiction, a lot of those things are coming true.

So you need to ask yourself, do you want to live in a herlike version of the future? Do you want to live in an

future? Do you want to live in an idiocracy?

And while like this art is made to express a point of view and you may roll your eyes and like we'll never get to idiocracy, but there is a message there if you're willing to listen to it. And

so how do we distill that message down to decision-m that we make today in the experiences that we make? Our world is

now driven by digital experiences.

And of course IRL I hope it's they they will change the game. And

so I think that there's so many different multiple versions of the future. And I nerd out on this but it's

future. And I nerd out on this but it's only because I don't know the answer.

I'm like, dude, this is like a butterfly effect situation. You know what I mean?

effect situation. You know what I mean?

Like Ashton Kosher, the butterfly effect. I have

effect. I have totally so much could change. So all you can do is think about like how do I root myself and the people I care about in the

present and make the best decisions with the information I have daytoday to feel like I'm the type of person who people want to work with, who people want to

have close to them as a friend and work through this like muck together cuz a lot of it is chaos right now.

I mean, you're right. There's a million versions of what this could look like.

It does feel like there is this even increased prevalence of digital experiences in all versions. And in a world where AI is realistically

swallowing more and more of the software creation experience, what do you think it's going to look like for designers to maintain the human touch?

Think about what Johnny Ivan was talking about recently in the Stright Sessions.

It's talking about like how a chord was designed. taking that real

designed. taking that real intentionality of like, wow, somebody really thought through this. Somebody

really put the time and the effort to think about what is the best version of what this could be, you know? And that I think is a really cool way to look at design and product design. That's still

tapping into that thing I talked about before, which is like a simple human truth. Like iPhone users, people who

truth. Like iPhone users, people who purchase iPhones want a high-end experience. They want to feel like they

experience. They want to feel like they made the right decision. Even that

unboxing moment, even the way that that cord is braided just so with that lightly um golden, you know, fiber or whatever that's in the newer version, somebody thought about that and somebody

put the care and intention into that.

So, my money was well spent. You take

that idea of like, I'm going to build meaning into those experiences. It's

understanding what people want, what do they need, sometimes those two can be in opposition, but then designing an experience that ultimately delivers that. And the hardest part is getting to

that. And the hardest part is getting to that human truth though. I think the execution is easier as long as you've got an amazing team like but the harder

part is like what's the thing that truly matters.

I'm a big believer in the power of video to explain my thinking as a designer. So

when it's time to give feedback, I'll drop a Loom link in Slack and another link to a Figma prototype and then feedback will be scattered everywhere and I mean it's a mess. So, I'm building the product that I've always wanted to

exist, and it's called Inflight. You can

kind of think of it like an Async Crit.

It's an easy way to share a video walkthrough along with an interactive prototype or whatever you're designing, and then AI interviews the people on your team to get you the feedback that

you need and organizes everything for you in a beautiful insights page. So,

right now, I'm only giving access to Dive Club listeners. So, if you want to be one of the first to use Inflight, head to dive.club/inflight

to claim your spot. You said something earlier that I'm now going to return back to where you talked about just the right amount of research, almost implying that you can overress research

something. So, maybe I'm going to pull

something. So, maybe I'm going to pull that back into the conversation as you're bringing up this process of getting at the human truth again. And

can we just get really specific? like

are there practical frameworks or processes or things that you all are doing when you're maybe even interfacing with clients to help you and them arrive

at what are these underlying truths that we should put at the heart of everything.

I did not coin this term. So I want to be really clear. There's somebody who's a lot more um experienced than me who coined this term and her name is Erikica Hall and she's written for a book apart

and I think her book was called just enough research right and so figuring out what is just enough that's the real snag in all of this but I think that

ultimately you don't want to get so much research under your belt that you get into like analysis paralysis right like even though we can do a lot more with AI today to model the data and find the

patterns and all the things. And so it's figuring out like, okay, well, what does success look like? If we understand what success looks like, then we can start to unpack what are the things that are

going to get us there. One of the things we know is a standard of getting to success with any existing user base is understanding their needs. Why do we want to understand their needs? Because

we want to speak to them, resonate with them, find that simple human truth. But

people are complicated. Sometimes that

means doing a logitudinal diary study and like studying people over time.

Sometimes that means some really quick and dirty user interviews or some concept testing. Sometimes that means

concept testing. Sometimes that means doing like a bigger survey and trying to figure out like what the patterns are in the survey. But I am a believer in all

the survey. But I am a believer in all research as a data point that makes sense given the end goal. Deciding what

makes sense can have a lot to do with budget, time, resources, all the things.

So, what's the quickest cheat code to get you to those answers? What's the

thing that's going to give you those confident design decisions? And if you can find that method, just go, right?

Yeah.

And confident design decisions also have a lot to do with the people who are designing. And so, that plus the right

designing. And so, that plus the right amount of research to give you that foundation of confidence into continuing to make something. But we're big fans of

the tangible. So we don't do well in

the tangible. So we don't do well in projects where we talk a lot. We get to making as quickly as possible because a

prototype, a screen, a sketch, a mood board can say more than any sort of like, you know, fancy deck or a million words, right? So getting to the making

words, right? So getting to the making of something tangible to point at is so important along with tempering that with real research with real humans. In my

opinion, you can use synthetic humans if you want, but I also say that you should temper that with real humans. Like,

okay, I was going to ask about that because you talked about the fastest getting there as quickly as you can. I'm

like, well, is there an asterisk there or Well, think about it. Like, what are synthetic humans trained on? And what do they become? They come in an

they become? They come in an amalgamation of a persona.

And if you get the right designer or researcher in a room, they'll either love or hate a persona too for all the same reasons, right? And so like you just have to be careful with synthetic

methods because they're not giving you the purity of what you need in the human experience, right? It's a very watered

experience, right? It's a very watered down normalized experience that you're hearing about. So the just enough is

hearing about. So the just enough is such a hard question to answer, but it's a really important one that um I I know that the team at my lab is constantly pushing on and figuring out what makes

the most sense given the context of what we can do and when and also the intensity of the design problem, right?

If there's a really intense design problem that's let's say in, you know, something consequential like healthcare or finance, you're going to want to take more beats to be really thoughtful about

how you exeute that rather than like, hey, we're working on an early stage startup and we've got some brand concepts that we want to go kick around and see what people think.

Those are two very wide between what just enough might be. Honestly, I had some conviction even listening to you talk because I've been working on a new product this year and I did a lot of

discovery calls, like a lot. And I think I got to the point where I understood the layer that was probably held enough information for me to make the right

decisions. But then I had probably more

decisions. But then I had probably more than just enough of the of this research process and I got down to another layer and it actually started spinning me in circles a little bit because then you

start to really illuminate all of the divergence and all of the edge cases. You said analysis paralysis

edge cases. You said analysis paralysis and I totally felt that. I totally felt that. And would I have felt that if I

that. And would I have felt that if I did half as much research? Maybe not

actually. you can almost preserve this confidence and excitement about a direction and at that point the most important thing you have on your side is momentum anyway and perhaps there's this inverse correlation then between

research and momentum.

Did you pop any of those results into an AI to help sense?

I did. I used granola quite heavily for it.

Okay.

Why why I'm curious why you ask.

Well, it's just because if you give AI the right prompts to like I I don't know what the exact right prompt would be. my

head of research handing would be better for this prompt. But like if you were to say like be an expert researcher and strategist, look at this result set and show me where the patterns are. Show me

what the deepest insight is. You know

what I mean? Like kind of giving it that prompt to train you in a direction. Have

it be your boss for a second and give it like where's that expert layer that you feel like you're missing in the whole analysis paralysis, right?

Cuz like imagine you went to a friend, ask the same thing. That would be a cool

same thing. That would be a cool experiment to go to Claude but then go to Angie. Shout out.

to Angie. Shout out.

Yeah.

And have them both give you the answer because they may be totally the same and they may be wildly off.

Something that you just sparked which maybe is like kind of almost a combination of how I'm working and then an idea that you just presented which is I really like having AI ask me questions. Like rather than me doing the

questions. Like rather than me doing the input, I'm basically like hey I want you to just interview the hell out of me on this topic. and then we'll synthesize it

this topic. and then we'll synthesize it from there. And so perhaps what I could

from there. And so perhaps what I could do is feed it this raw data set of research, interviews, whatever it is, transcripts, doesn't, you know, whatever I want to put in there and then say,

"Okay, now I want you to ask me questions to get at my take what do I see from this data set? What are the trends that I notice?" And then once you

have an understanding of what I see, now create a report of everything that I did not mention. What are all of the things

not mention. What are all of the things that I did not highlight or different ways that you could combine these trends that would point in different directions or help me arrive at a different set of

conclusions? And I've never done

conclusions? And I've never done something like that, but I've just taken that away as a potential practice that I might explore in the future.

That sounds like such a cool unlock for process. You know, having it be your

process. You know, having it be your critique, I think, is a huge Oh, man.

Here's another thing. Like you know the Steve Jobs faster horses Henry Ford Steve Jobs like you know he basically took Henry Ford's idea that if you ask people what they wanted they

would have told me faster horses meanwhile I'm making cars over here y'all like Steve Jobs that a lot.

So you have it be in Steve Jobs mode for you too right because when you're making something there is balancing the thing that people tell you versus projecting

that potential future of what could be.

And sometimes those two things do not align directly, right? So that's

definitely lead into like understanding the human condition, deeply seated human needs. But then there's the like,

needs. But then there's the like, well, what if there's painting this like potential version of the future that people never thought of?

And that's why Steve Jobs was very tempered about research for this reason.

And once you understand the nuance, he wasn't anti. He just understood that

wasn't anti. He just understood that those two things had to be held together and understood to make the right confident design decision even if it's not what people are telling you

which is another thing that's very interesting cuz people might tell you what you want to hear or about faster horses when that's not going to be the solution. the more that I talk to

solution. the more that I talk to people, the more that I'm like, man, depending on how you use these tools, you can have a vastly different experience, you know, like so many people still are

in the phase of using something like Claude or Chachi as just an answer machine, but that's like barely scratching the surface. So now you're making me wonder, is there anything else

that we haven't talked about in terms of how you've maybe evolved your usage of AI over time? even personally like what are you doing to try new methods or just

in general try to get the most out of these tools in your own workflows?

Well, I got to say like one thing I think that's a big gap, but I've done this intentionally is I have a lot of tools and not a lot of depth in them all. I've got my own personal accounts

all. I've got my own personal accounts with Perplexity and Cloud and all the things, right? and um all these other

things, right? and um all these other ones that are a little bit weird and there's like this little marketplace that might be the next app store of AI that's kind of cool to look into and like it's called PO and like there's all

these other things to like yeah those are my personal accounts but then we have our you know work accounts for stuff too and the reason I'm saying that is because the data that I'm giving it

is so thin across each garbage in garbage out the outputs are only as good as the data that you give it right at a base level but also on a personalization level. So truly the thing I'm trying to

level. So truly the thing I'm trying to do is get Chat JPT to know who I am a little bit more at this point, but right now it thinks I'm a man and

yeah, still does. I've tried this many times. Um, and it's because of the

times. Um, and it's because of the information that I'm giving it. I asked

it to paint a picture of me and it is a very dark situation. I look like Oh man, it's not a great reflection of the industry.

Yeah, I look like a Renaissance wizard with like some formulas behind and I'm not that smart. I'm not good at math, so I don't know. It just thinks that whatever I put in there, that's a reflection of me, but it clearly doesn't

know me. But that's by design, and I do

know me. But that's by design, and I do that on purpose.

And the reason I tell you about that is that like it is my job to know about all these things. It's my job to know how to

these things. It's my job to know how to train all of these things. It's my job to know how to properly prompt. And yet,

my information is a thin layer across them all. I'm a person who very much

them all. I'm a person who very much needs to trust what I work with too, you know, and I'm continually making sure that, you know, they're keeping up their end of the bargain, too. If I gave

myself some feedback, I don't give it enough data to be as relevant to me as I could and I have my data, my data profile is too sparse and thin across too many tools.

I couldn't agree more. And I think I was in the exact same situation and I felt the weight of it too because I believe that there will be compounding value

over time as a certain model deeply understands you and can make connections across everything. And I was kind of

across everything. And I was kind of doing the AI tourist game for a little bit. For me it was then tragic released

bit. For me it was then tragic released memory and I was like well shoot that's pretty compelling. And so then I started

pretty compelling. And so then I started putting everything into tragic after that and it actually really has gotten amazing. But now you have like DIA

amazing. But now you have like DIA browser and comment browser and I believe deeply that an AI native browser is the future. I can also see the kind

of upstream benefits of that. But it's

not like a little thing for me. I'm not

looking at this as like oh you know it's the uh what browser do I want to use.

For me it's like what is the core AI system that I want to contribute to and achieve those compounding benefits over time. That's weighty, right? like that's

time. That's weighty, right? like that's

like kind of a big deal and I don't take it lightly and so I don't know it's a it's a kind of crazy outcome that's been produced by this explosion of tools actually.

Totally. It's so cool to hear you talk about the way you think about it too and where you're going with the browser thing cuz I I believe that too. I mean

just take a look at Chrome. Chrome knows

so much about you.

It's like it's creepy and there's a reason why. Yet at the same time, if you

reason why. Yet at the same time, if you are somebody who believed browsers will be like one of the next frontiers knowing you incredibly well, it's like you have to hold that tension with like

what you said, how much data do I really want to give it and how much do I trust it versus like I know that it's only going to be as useful to me as what I give it.

What am I doing here if I don't want to invest in it?

Yeah. So like what's that exchange?

What's that value exchange? And I'm

constantly thinking about that. And you

know, I I will say that I know some people behind both of those products and really they're amazing designers and they're very trustworthy people in my

opinion. So that user interface layer I

opinion. So that user interface layer I have loads of confidence in. But there's

other pieces of it of like how much do I buy in with what I do give it. I would

be lying to you if I said like I'm a little bit of a conspiracy theorist. I

don't want it to have all that great. There was there was a hint coming

great. There was there was a hint coming through. I I I was picking up something

through. I I I was picking up something just a little bit, you know, and it's only cuz maybe I know too much in this and I think a lot of us in tech might know too much, but it's also like this is the world

that we're building. I was giving a talk at All Trails who is like a design company that, you know, totally loads of respect for.

Love All Trails.

I was just talking with their team about AI and how we use it and how they were thinking about it and it was a really cool kind of like rapid fire question and answer session. I'm just lucky enough to know design leaders there.

That's the only reason I got in. One of

them asked me, "Well, what companies do you trust?" And that was a really

you trust?" And that was a really amazing answer to be put on the spot with because I think what we need to do is like look out in the world and look

at the signals, right? And look at who is signaling who should you should trust and who creates things that paint a picture of the world that you want to live in. And you know I gave the example

live in. And you know I gave the example of um Anthropic and Dario Modi and you know I couldn't remember the name of his paper but it was like um machines of loving grace.

Loving grace. I was like magical machine robots. Yeah. Yeah.

robots. Yeah. Yeah.

Um but all of the ways that our world can be improved with this insane technology that is really picking up pace.

Like that's a world I want to live in.

But we also have to think about the opposite side because the human condition is like we are we contain multitudes. We are not all good. We are

multitudes. We are not all good. We are

the good, the bad, the ugly. And so

that's going to be manifested in what we make in terms of our world with especially with AI because AI is not just a mirror. It's like an exponential

formula to magnify all of the things that are right but also wrong with our world.

So, if you've got somebody who releases a paper like that and you've got somebody who's making a product like Claude as an example, and I'm just giving one example because I can't I want to get into everyone.

It's a really good example though because it popped into my head too, even tying back to what we were talking about earlier about what makes something resonate and like where and how can you attach meaning.

That was a pretty effective example, right? because it had mind share for

right? because it had mind share for both of us where that was the thing that kind of popped into our head. They're

operating in largely a commodified industry. It's raw tech and power and if

industry. It's raw tech and power and if one thing is clear it's like yeah people are leaprogging each other but this is a commoditized set of technology. We are

operating at the infrastructure level here. And so to be able to put that much

here. And so to be able to put that much of a signal out into the world of this is what we believe the future should look like and then have that be a magnet for people who want to create that future.

Yeah.

It's like the perfect example of what we were talking about earlier.

I don't believe this, but like let's play it out and they end up being like mega evil corp. Then like shame on us, you know?

Yeah.

Shame on them.

I don't think that that's the case with them. But, you know, you could think of

them. But, you know, you could think of somebody who's a pessimist or somebody who's, you know, say like, "Wow, they really got you with that marketing, you know."

know." And my answer was like, "They did, but I trust them. I believe them." There's

trust them. I believe them." There's

also that leap of faith that I talked about where it's like, "Okay, I took that leap with them. If they break my trust, you're dead to me." No, I'm kidding. You took that leap of faith and

kidding. You took that leap of faith and you better pay it off. And I hope I hope I believe that you're a bunch of good people behind this, but we also have to hold space that like a lot of this is

capitalism, you know, and this is the world that we live in. So these

conversations wildly so go so far from like a superficial like amazing like make it pop, make it pretty like brand fun bling bling motion down to

philosophy so fast for me because I can't not think about all of these things all at once in the moment that we're in.

And that's why I meditate.

One thing listening to you talk is that it's pretty clear you're, you know, you're plugged in to the industry and you have a decent sense of what's going on. You're talking to these different

on. You're talking to these different teams. So, I'm curious, are there any misconceptions about AI that you see designers have? And maybe any ideas for

designers have? And maybe any ideas for how we could kind of shift those mindsets?

Gosh, it really depends on the designer, you know? So, I guess talk about the

you know? So, I guess talk about the spectrum. There's some designers who are

spectrum. There's some designers who are like, that'll never take my job. he

can't do what I do. Which, you know, I believe that there's always going to need to be a human layer to controlling AI when you want to get an outcome that is for humans. But but hold up, what

elements of your job, right? And like what elements of your

right? And like what elements of your job, you know, do you want to hold on to versus have AI do for you? And that's a that's a big moment that we're in right now of, for

example, doing the busy work and making room for creative work. That's my

personal POV that I'd like to see. But

the other end of the spectrum is the AI can do everything, right? And a lot of people putting out a lot of garbage and then it getting traction, which I guess

is fine, but it's kind of like slop on slop on slop just makes more slop. And

so, how do you get it back to a point where there's we cut the noise out? Cuz

that's all just noise. And being able to filter out the noise is something that we've needed to be able to do since the beginning of time, right? But today, you have to be so much better at it if you

were to focus on the things that matter for you individually.

We've covered a lot of ground.

And before I let you go, I kind of want to give just a little catchall to make sure that we're talking about everything that you want to cover here. So,

I'm going to toss a hypothetical your way. It's not an easy one, but let's say

way. It's not an easy one, but let's say that tomorrow you are given this giant digital billboard that you have complete

creative control over and the entire design community is going to see for 24 hours. What would you want to put on

hours. What would you want to put on that billboard?

Oh. Oh my gosh, I love this question.

What I'm thinking is some sort of like big like holographic or like lenticular like angles that are the background. I

love it.

Yeah. So, like really nerdy from seeing lenticulars. They're a thing. They're

lenticulars. They're a thing. They're

more fun to hold, but still. And then in giant neon lettering, probably I Yeah, I would say sans sif

all caps. Don't [ __ ] it up. And then I

all caps. Don't [ __ ] it up. And then I would just sign like love in script at the very bottom or something.

Wow. Yeah,

that got to such a high level of fidelity so quickly in your brain. Like

you closed your eyes and it was just there.

Can we get this made? Who wants to pay for it?

Give us the meaning to you behind Don't [ __ ] it up.

It's so much of like what we were talking about top to bottom. Your career

can still be a big gigantic wide open space. This world can still be it's

space. This world can still be it's malleable. Like we can make it. We can

malleable. Like we can make it. We can

make what we want. Like that's a thing that I'm that's boy I love being a designer is we can make part of the things that we want to see in the world even if we can't

control everything. It's it's just a

control everything. It's it's just a it's a PSA. It's a PSA for everybody who has money or is in tech. Actually, it's

I love that. And I think now that the means of production is effectively being democratized, what a great time to be a designer. Like I'm so grateful for this

designer. Like I'm so grateful for this core set of skills in terms of what it will require to make a true impact and actually shape the future.

I am a staunch believer that the people who know how to get the outcomes from these tools are the ones that are going to make the things that win. And at the end of the day, your title doesn't

matter as much as your skills. And those

skills are blending together. And that's

fun if you love learning and if you love challenging yourself.

I love it. Well, Sarah, this has been beautiful and as human as this show has ever gotten. So, I appreciate you coming

ever gotten. So, I appreciate you coming on.

It was great. I I love it. I'm going to I'm going to feed it in. Maybe we'll uh I'll see if the editor can create some kind of visual representation by the time this goes live. We'll see if it gets close to your vision. Well, thank

you for coming on, Sarah. This was a blast.

Yeah, it was so fun to get to know you better today, too. And and just shouts for everything that you do for the community. and it's just I love positive

community. and it's just I love positive spaces on the internet. So, thank you for doing what you do.

Before I let you go, I want to take just one minute to run you through my favorite products because I'm constantly asked what's in my stack. Framer is how

I build websites. Genway is how I do research. Granola is how I take notes

research. Granola is how I take notes during crit. Jitter is how I animate my

during crit. Jitter is how I animate my designs. Lovable is how I build my ideas

designs. Lovable is how I build my ideas in code. Mobin is how I find design

in code. Mobin is how I find design inspiration. Paper is how I design like

inspiration. Paper is how I design like a creative and Raycast is my shortcut every step of the way. Now, I've hand selected these companies so that I can

do these episodes full-time. So, by far the number one way to support the show is to check them out. You can find the full list at dive.comclub/partners.