Walter Isaacson talks about Steve Jobs

Well, it's a pleasure to talk to you about Steve Jobs and I'm going to just do it informally and perhaps we can have a discussion. Uh, but I'll give some of

a discussion. Uh, but I'll give some of the background to the book and some of the lessons I learned. The background

actually came because of the Aspen Institute a bit. in 200 uh late 2003 right when I got this job or early 2004 I got a call from Steve Jobs who I I'd

known him intermittently over the years ever since 1984 when he had come to Time magazine to show off the original Macintosh and even back then he was a

bit of a handful and you could see two sides of his personality. Uh this is 1984 and he is showing us the absolute beauty of the Mac that he had designed.

Every curve, everything on the face of the Mac. I'm going to borrow this for a

the Mac. I'm going to borrow this for a second. I mean, this is what he looked

second. I mean, this is what he looked like back then. And this was the original Macintosh. And he would just

original Macintosh. And he would just show how he had cut that down so it looked like a human face and a smile.

And he had a loop so he could look at all of the icons of it. But then you saw the other Steve Jobs because he was absolutely furious that we had not made

a man of the year in 1983 and that there had been a story in Time magazine that was not uh that sort of showed his rough side as well as his upside. And so I remember him just

upside. And so I remember him just saying we were a terrible magazine, not nearly as good as Newsweek and that's why we didn't understand the importance of this machine. Uh I came out of that

meeting despite this sort of or maybe because of this intensity and passion in both directions really liking Steve Jobs and over the years uh we sort of vaguely

kept in touch. In fact, every now and then uh he'd become my best friend again for one day every six months or so when either Apple or Next Computer or Pixar

had a new product out and he'd say, "Well, you know, I I you're the only person who might understand this." and

we'd go have sushi at uh a restaurant downtown and he'd try to convince us to put it on the cover. So when I got the call in 2004, I had just uh I had

finished uh I had published a book on Benjamin Franklin was finishing one on Einstein and Steve says to me, why don't you do me next? And my first reaction

is, you know, Franklin, Einstein, Steve, you know [laughter] what a uh Eric.

Well, anyway, um so politely I said, um well, yeah, maybe someday in 30 20 30 years when you retire or you know, I

could see doing it. Eventually though, I got a call from his wife and I was talking to her and she said, "If you're going to do Steve, you ought to do it now. you got to do it now. And I

now. you got to do it now. And I

realized, okay, um I didn't, you know, he was sick and not only had he transformed six industries, but he was doing it while battling cancer. And it

was just an amazing tale of being at the intersection of art and science of the intersection of the humanities and uh entrepreneurship and technology. And

that's what the institute was all about.

And it seemed like a great thing. And I

even said to her, I said, "Well, gee, you know, I didn't know when Steve called me that he was sick." She said, "Nobody knew. He kept it an absolute

"Nobody knew. He kept it an absolute secret. The day he called you was the

secret. The day he called you was the day he was operated the before he was day before he was operated on for cancer." So, I decided that, you know,

cancer." So, I decided that, you know, yes, I will definitely want to do this book. Um, the thing that struck me is

book. Um, the thing that struck me is his intensity and it really goes back to his childhood roots. He was adopted. He

was uh the the birth son of a Syrian from H Syria very big family in Holmes the now the center of the revolution there uh named Abdullah Jandali and

every now and then you'll see in the papers if you're reading about what's happening in Syria Johnali family mentioned uh but uh he was put up for adoption was adopted by a truly

wonderful guy Paul Jobs who was a high school dropout coast guard guy who had become an auto mechanic and a repo man, a guy who repossessed cars for a finance

company in uh the Valley of California.

And uh Steve was always knew he was adopted and he said, you know, as we were walking through his old neighborhood, he's pointing out he said, "Yes, it had an impact on me." and he pointed um right across the street from

the house where he grew up in as a little child. He said, "Yeah, when I was

little child. He said, "Yeah, when I was four, I knew I'd been adopted and I walked across the street and I told the girl who lived across the street that I was adopted." And she said, "Oh, that

was adopted." And she said, "Oh, that means your parents didn't want you, that you were abandoned." And he said, "I ran across the street and talked to my parents and they said, "Listen carefully. We specifically picked you

carefully. We specifically picked you out. You were chosen. You are special."

out. You were chosen. You are special."

And he said, "So I always grew up feeling a misfit, a rebel. If you

remember the great ads of Apple, you know, here's to the misfits, the rebels, the people who think differently different. Uh but I also felt uh well

different. Uh but I also felt uh well in the book I explain why he thinks the grammar is right." Uh

it's a noun, think different. Um uh but he uh you know, he said, "I always felt chosen and special. I felt I was, you know, the normal rules didn't apply to

me. And for good and for bad, that was

me. And for good and for bad, that was the reality distortion field around Steve Jobs was that the normal rules did not apply to him. His father also cared

very much about design. His father uh being an auto mechanic would fix up cars and resell them. And he used to have pictures of the beautiful end to-end design of a car from the chassis to the

trims and the molding. and he uh was building a fence with Steve one day when Steve was about nine or 10 years old.

And Paul Jobs said, "We have to make the back of the fence just as beautiful and as well done as the front." And Steve says, "Well, why? Nobody will ever see it. Nobody will ever know." And his

it. Nobody will ever know." And his father said, "Yes, but you will know."

And so all of that became part of this passion for perfection, but also the design sensibility of Steve Jobs. He was

part of that period of which Steve Weissman knows well although he was in Southern California at Beverly's house high but in the Bay Area of California in the late 1960s you had the confluence

of the counterculture the free speech movement the rebel movement but also the burgeoning technology movement the microprocessor having just been uh

invented by Intel and somehow for a while the computer types uh were at odds with the counterculture types who were back to nature but also believe that

computers were tools of the Pentagon and the power structure. But there becomes a computers to the people movement of which uh the whole earth catalog and even Steve Jobs is part of because they

formed the homebrew computer club and that becomes the ethos in which Steve grew up. He has both sides of that

grew up. He has both sides of that culture in him. Sort of the alternative counterculture streak as well as the engineering entrepreneurial streak. uh

goes off to college and drops out uh of Reed College, drops out after a semester, but sort of sticks around campus for a while taking the calligraphy courses and the courses on

the beauty also goes to India to uh see the Maharaji who would actually dies before Steve gets there. But Steve still spends months wandering in India

penniless on the journey. uh becoming

very involved in his Buddhist training believing that the journey is the reward as uh was his mantra and uh ends up coming back and all those who had been part of the Buddhist the Zen Buddhist

training and had gone to India that whole crowd started work on an apple commune in southern Oregon and indeed that's where the name Apple sprang up

because Steve is doing that but also keeping his toe in the more electronic geek technology side of the equation

working at Atari. He had come into Atari after the trip from India barefoot wearing his Indian robes. He had become a total vegan uh read uh uh uh the

mucusless diet and diet for a small planet actually believe that if you had a total fruit only or futarian and vegetable diet that you would not have

body odor so you didn't have to bathe or use deodorant. Uh this was a theory that

use deodorant. Uh this was a theory that was incorrect, but um [laughter] you can laugh.

So uh they put him on the night shift at Atari because they have trouble working with him, Nolan Bushnell and Alhorn, the

great founders of Atari there. But Steve

learns a lot at Atari. First of all, the simp how to juice a microchip to do spectacular things. Secondly, the need

spectacular things. Secondly, the need for simplicity. I mean, if those of you

for simplicity. I mean, if those of you who remember Pong and other things realize that it had to be simple enough for a stoned freshman to figure it out.

So, they usually had, you know, for Space Wars, you know, the the only instructions were insert quarter avoid clingons. You know, it was just that

clingons. You know, it was just that simple. And he has this friend that he

simple. And he has this friend that he had met who had gone to Homestead High School a few years ahead of him. He was

doing things with named Steve Waznjak.

and Wnjak uh loved to come to Atari at night and uh sort of play the games while Steve worked. Steve finally got a commission to take Pong, which you may

remember uh which was, you know, sort of a blip between two paddles type game and turn it into a single player game which becomes Breakout where you just hit it

against the wall and it breaks the bricks out. Uh and uh Steve of course is

bricks out. Uh and uh Steve of course is not as great of an engineer as was and he says to W you got to do it and we have to do it in 4 days. W says you

can't we can't design this. It take a month month and a half. Steve says look at me you can do it. And Steve had developed an unblinking stare and he

told Waznjak don't be afraid you can do it. And Wazak said that was his reality

it. And Wazak said that was his reality distortion field. But the weird thing

distortion field. But the weird thing about the reality distortion field as W pointed out is that W did it. He did

that entire game became a big game in four days. And he said the great thing

four days. And he said the great thing about the reality distortion field is it actually distorts reality. It makes you believe something is that is impossible

you can do and then you do it. And this

you see throughout his career at Apple.

I'll leap forward for a moment because there's a guy I really admire named Wendel Weekes who runs Corn and Glass as a CEO. We were talking about he said,

a CEO. We were talking about he said, "Yeah, I remember when Steve Jobs was looking for a glass a form of glass that could be on the iPhone." He didn't want

it to be plastic and he was looking in, you know, they had tried to find glass from China that be strong enough. And

finally, John Celely Brown, who works with us at the institute, is on the board of Corning, calls to Steve and says, "You should go to Corning, New York and look at Corning Glass because they can actually maybe try this out."

So he goes to Corning, New York. There's

Wendle Weeks. Uh Steve Jobs sits in the office. Here's exactly what I need.

office. Here's exactly what I need.

Wendle Week said, "Well, we once did a certain type of process that made something that would have created something we call would call Gorilla Glass, which would make it really

strong." And uh um Steve said, "No, no,

strong." And uh um Steve said, "No, no, no. That wouldn't work. Here's" and Week

no. That wouldn't work. Here's" and Week said, "No, I had to say,"Wait a minute.

I know how to make glass. Shut up and listen." And he showed it. So Steve

listen." And he showed it. So Steve

says, "Okay, I believe you. The iPhones

coming out in October this year. I need

this much glass." And Window Week said, "Well, we've never manufactured. We've

never done it before." It was just a theoretical. It was actually done when

theoretical. It was actually done when they thought Ralph Nato was going to make him make strong windshields. And

then he I guess something happened. So,

um, weak said, "I'm sorry, we can't do it." And Steve Jobs said the same thing

it." And Steve Jobs said the same thing he had said to W back 35 years earlier, which is, "Don't be afraid. You can do it." And Weeks said, "This is the

it." And Weeks said, "This is the weirdest thing." Then Weeks picked up

weirdest thing." Then Weeks picked up the phone and called the plant in Lexington, Kentucky that was making glass for uh flat screens and said, "I

want you to convert to making this new process starting tomorrow." And they did it, which is why every piece of glass on every iPhone and iPad is made by Corning Glass. It's that reality distortion

Glass. It's that reality distortion field. But I've jumped ahead of the

field. But I've jumped ahead of the story just a little bit. I mean, Steve does that at Atari. They create great things was and he creates something called the blue box which um allows them

to make phone calls for free by replicating the and finally they come up with this um this the Apple computer

which is was design but Steve is the one who says we can make money we can market this we can package it and sell it and so you see this wonderful partnership

arise out of which comes the computer that really does change the world and become the home computer of the first personal computer. Really revolutionary,

personal computer. Really revolutionary, which is the Apple 2, a totally integrated machine in which Steve has had somebody design a really beautiful case and what is still the typical Apple

style of clean lines, put it together with the keyboard and everything else.

So, it wasn't just for hobbyists, it was something you could use at home. Uh, the

great thing about the Apple 2 is that it adhered to the hacker ethos, a hands-on imperative. You should be able to open

imperative. You should be able to open it up. You should have slots. You should

it up. You should have slots. You should

be able to put your own motherboards and circuit boards and jack it into the various slots because W was truly of that hacker mentality. Steve Jobs was the opposite though. He was a control

freak. He really wanted to control

freak. He really wanted to control everything from end to end. And so he has this big fight with W over the Apple 2. He wants no ports, no slots, no way

2. He wants no ports, no slots, no way to open. W says that I'm going to quit.

to open. W says that I'm going to quit.

So Wins argument, but as W said, I knew it'd be the last time I'd win an argument. That is when Steve starts

argument. That is when Steve starts creating the Macintosh. The Macintosh

being uh the next great computer they do, which is totally integrated end to end with the hardware connected to the software. You can't get the Mac

software. You can't get the Mac operating system without buying the Mac hardware or vice versa. There are no screws on the Mac. You cannot open it

up.

Um, no slots. Everything is tightly controlled like an appliance. And as

they were shipping, as they were getting ready to finish it in near time to ship it, Steve is looking at everything, every icon, every curve. Like I said, in 1984 when he came to show it to us and he looked at the circuit board and he

said, "No, no, this isn't beautiful enough. The chips are not lined up

enough. The chips are not lined up exactly right to make it." And they say, "Well, wait a minute. You made it so there no screws. you can't open this up even, nobody will ever see it. Nobody

will ever know. And he says exactly what his father had said to him, "But you will know." So they hold it up for a few

will know." So they hold it up for a few months while they redesign the circuit board. So it's beautiful even though

board. So it's beautiful even though nobody can open and see it. And then he makes them all sign their names and they engrave their names. He says, "Real artists sh sign their work." And

engraved on the inside of the Macintosh, which nobody can get to it, is the 32 engineers on the Mac team with Steven P.

jobs in the middle because that's what he had was this artistic perfection.

Now the the artistic perfection goes with the temperament of an artist. He's

very hard to work with, very demanding.

The reality distortion field goes with it as well. And he gets ousted from Apple by 1985, the year after the Matt comes out, because he's just both too hard to work with and too demanding. And

there's a fight with John Scully and the rest of the board. He feels abandoned again. Scully had been a father figure

again. Scully had been a father figure he brought in. Everybody on the board was like a father figure to him. Arthur

Rock uh who he used to come visit in Aspen back in the old days. Mike Mara

uh once again he feels abandoned. Uh and

I'm not going to go through the whole life but as you know he creates Next Computer, does Pixar finally he gets brought back to Apple because Apple by 1997 is totally fallen off of a cliff.

can't even make their own operating system anymore and have to buy next computer because it has a Unix operating system with this kernel that can be used

seems to be the best system operating system for the new Mac operating system that they need by 1997. But if you buy next computer, it comes with Steve Jobs

and within six months having bought it, Steve Jobs is back in the saddle again and running Apple computer. He had had a great falling out with Bill Gates. You

ask me about his relationship with Bill.

Bill Gates uh they were like the binary star system of the digital age. They had

a uh you know a gravitational pull so that their orbits were always interlin.

Uh Microsoft and Bill Gates made their name I mean made their first you know profits really by writing for the Apple 2 and then the Macintosh both Word the

spreadsheets Excel everything. Uh, but

they had two different philosophies.

Steve's philosophy, as I said, was endto-end integration. Bill's philosophy

endto-end integration. Bill's philosophy was license it out. If I create an operating system, I'm not going to let IBM own it or, you know, Apple own it, it's going to be available to any

hardware manufacturer. This means that

hardware manufacturer. This means that you can't make a perfectly tightly integrated product because you're licensing your product out to all sorts of people's hardwares who might use it

differently. What that makes Steve

differently. What that makes Steve upset, but what also makes him upset is that Steve had uh gotten the graphical user interface uh you know for the

original Mac and of course at least in Steve's mind about Bill Gates rips it off totally rips it off and uses it for Windows. Of course uh the original

Windows. Of course uh the original graphical interfaces have been developed at Xerox Park but he's still furious that uh you know Gates is now using it for Windows. So they have the great

for Windows. So they have the great falling out. But what happens when he

falling out. But what happens when he comes back in 97? One of his first real phone calls Steve makes is to Bill Gates and said, "I'm come back. I'm going to have to save Apple from all these bozos

who've destroyed it. You have to invest in Apple. You have to help and you have

in Apple. You have to help and you have to start writing great software for Apple again." And Gates immediately

Apple again." And Gates immediately says, "Yes." And he comes down. They

says, "Yes." And he comes down. They

have wonderful meetings. They arranged

all this just in the lawsuits that had been between Apple and Microsoft for 10 years over the intellectual property case over the use of the user graphical

interface. They drop all of that. They

interface. They drop all of that. They

shake hands. They make this wonderful deal and even at Mac World somewhat famously in 1997, there's uh Bill Gates up there on the screen announcing the alliance with

Apple again. Uh the other call just as a

Apple again. Uh the other call just as a side bit, the other call that um uh Steve made then was to John Waro at

Adobe to ask an Adobe systems, you know, I'm back. You've got to start making for

I'm back. You've got to start making for the Mac again software. And uh Adobe said, "No, you've got a 5% market share.

It's not worth our while. We're not

going to do it." Steve never forgave him. Even to the end of his life, he was

him. Even to the end of his life, he was railing about it. And if you wonder why when you pull out your iPhone, you cannot use flash has nothing to do with Flash being a

battery hog or anything else. There is

no way while Steve Jobs was alive that any Adobe product and Adobe has now to abandon support for Flash because Steve Jobs wanted to destroy Adobe 10 years

later simply for having said no when he came back. uh the endto-end integration

came back. uh the endto-end integration model works not as well as a business model as Bill Gates's open you know license it out as true with the Android

as we see now uh with Google but it does make for more tightly integrated consumer products that work smoothly and instantly you don't get those god-awful messages you get whenever you use

Microsoft you know office 2010 with its you know useless you know sort of way of telling you errors and

So, uh, this allows Apple after it finally has conquered the iMac, you know, the beautiful design that sort of translucent beyond blue translucent because he wants you to be able to see

the circuit board and how beautiful it is. Has a little handle even though it's

is. Has a little handle even though it's a desktop computer. Why? Because the

engineers say that'll cost a lot. Nobody

actually moves desktops around with that little recessed handle. He said, "No, people are still afraid of computers, but if you put a little handle, it's a sign even though nobody do it, which is you can touch me. I'm at your service."

And so it was that sort of understanding of how a consumer would feel when they touch the curve of the iPhone or see the recessed handle on the iMac. But so what he can do then with the endto-end

integration model is create devices like the iPod being the first one that's totally integrated into the whole Apple system. So, it's not like those old MP3

system. So, it's not like those old MP3 players we used to have before the iPod where you couldn't get it to sync and you were trying to, you know, attach it

to, you know, your compact, your Dell computer or whatever it was and you had to make the playlist on the device. It's

so seamless. you can do the iPod and then of course he decides once it's successful the only way we can lose now that we dominate this market is the cell phone makers could be smart enough to

say we'll let you put music on your cell phone so he cannibalizes the whole iPod business by creating the iPhone and allowing it to replace basically your

iPod uh but it's once again he has then by this point transformed the personal computer industry the uh movie uh animation digital animation industry.

Then the music industry with the iTunes store, the music sales industry. Now he

does it with the phone industry and finally of course with tablets which as of today you'll read in tomorrow's paper, they're now going to totally not only transform publishing and newspapers and magazines, but the whole textbook

industry because there's no reason you should be lugging around if you're a kid a textbooks in your backpack and they're going to have textbook authoring tools.

So anybody can make textbooks for the iPad and it will transform that industry. Likewise, even retail stores

industry. Likewise, even retail stores he helps it transform all because of the integrated endto-end model. Let me end with this because you know we were talking about Bill Gates and other

things. It was such an odd lovehate

things. It was such an odd lovehate relationship between the two of them especially since they had these great different philosophies but worked together well. And really just a few

together well. And really just a few months ago, a few months before Steve died, he was obviously very sick and everybody knew. And Bill Gates wanted to

everybody knew. And Bill Gates wanted to come see him. Uh Steve is not the most gracious of guys. I happen to be around.

I was sort of in the middle of this. Uh

Steve says, "You know what? A jerk."

Actually, he uses a word that begins with a, but I'll leave it a jerk. Uh you

know, he uh you know, thinks I'm dying.

He wants to just come make, you know, forget. But in the end, Bill Gates does

forget. But in the end, Bill Gates does come down to Certino. comes down alone, knocks on the back door. There's Eve,

the youngest daughter, Steve, doing her homework on the kitchen table. As you

know, Bill Gates says, "Where's your dad?" She points to the downstairs room

dad?" She points to the downstairs room where her dad is. They talk for four hours about what it was like, you know, to be the twin pillars of the digital

revolution.

And uh in the end um Bill Gates, who's a truly gracious, humane individual, says to Steve something very nice, which is, "I never thought that the end to end integrated model would work the way you

approached it at Apple, but you proved it could work." At which point Steve Jobs, who's not always as gracious, says, "Yeah, well, you proved your model could work as And I thought, gee, what a

wonderful sort of nice rounding out of the wonderful saga cuz I was uh around and I heard both of them tell the story.

I think this is a nice, you know, the sort of violin music plays. It swells,

they're together, they each say how much. So I and so when Bill Gates told

much. So I and so when Bill Gates told me this, uh I said um he said, "Well, you know something else? What I didn't tell Steve is that the end toend integrated model works well, but it only

really works well when you got a Steve Jobs. They are driving it. Somebody with

Jobs. They are driving it. Somebody with

the artist's temperament, the artist sensibility, the passion for perfection.

I thought, well, that's sweet. You know,

that's really nice. So, when I see jobs next, I say to him, here's what Bill said. You know, it can only work with

said. You know, it can only work with somebody like you doing it. And I

thought, you know, there's he'd like that. And of course, I'm wrong. Steve

that. And of course, I'm wrong. Steve

looks up and he says, "What a uh what jerk." I'll say, "Anybody could have

jerk." I'll say, "Anybody could have made it work. Uh even Bill Gates could have made it work. The reason he didn't make it work is cuz he has absolutely no taste."

taste." [laughter] So think, "Well, there goes the ending of the book."

And I said, "But you said his model worked as well, that he also was able, you know, his model was also valid." He

said, 'Y yeah, the Microsoft Bill Gates model that works very well as long as you don't care about making crappy products. That's all Microsoft ever made

products. That's all Microsoft ever made was crappy products. So, in the end, Steve is Steve. You have to write about the person you're writing about. People

say, "Well, gee, he wasn't nice. You

know, wasn't it hard?" I say, "Well, you know, if you want nice by Ben Franklin.

Ben Franklin was nice, [laughter] but also, you know, Ben Franklin invented the lightning rod and did many other things, but Steve Jobs did some

pretty amazing things as well. And so

his way of doing uh I'll end with sort of one of the last conversations I had him reflecting about the end of life and uh spirituality. He had been trained

uh spirituality. He had been trained very much as I said as a Zen Buddhist who believed liked to believe the tenants of Buddhism. Um, and I asked him, "Do you believe in God?" You know,

"Do you believe what happens when you die?" And he said, "Well, you know, it's

die?" And he said, "Well, you know, it's 50/50 in a way." Uh, I uh I sometimes believe I really do like to believe. I

like to believe that uh there's more to life than what you see. And that when you die, something lives on. your

accumulated wisdom, your experiential knowledge doesn't just disappear, but somehow uh endures, lives on. He said,

"But then sometimes I feel who knows just like an onoff switch. You die and click, you're gone." And then he paused and looked at me and said, "That's why I never like to put onoff switches on

Apple devices."

Apple devices." Anyway, thank you all very much. We have

a little time, a lot of time for Q&A and um discussion, comments, corrections.

Thank you. [applause]

Yeah.

Yes sir.

If you could briefly take us through the three men, Franklin.

Oh, Franklin, Einstein, and Jobs.

And Jobs.

Yeah. Thanks for leaving out Dr. Kissinger. Saves me the angst.

Kissinger. Saves me the angst.

Um you know there I like writing about the life of the mind. I mean other people write about great men of courage or you know people of artistic sensibilities or

military or sports leaders. I like to write about people whose minds are interesting but it's not really being smart. Smart people as you know are a

smart. Smart people as you know are a dime a dozen and they don't usually amount to much. What really counts is being imaginative or creative. So that's

where I think all three of these guys, Franklin Einstein and uh Jobs, they think different. They think out of the

think different. They think out of the box. Um

box. Um uh obviously they were very different.

Franklin is very clubable. Loves the

consensus, the wisdom of the people around him. you know, in a place filled

around him. you know, in a place filled with passion of John Adams and Sam Adams and all those people. He's the one who could bring us together and say, "We each have to part with some of our demands if we're going to make something

that'll hold together." And he's the calm, wise, sage person. Einstein is

truly the out of the box thinker, the one who's sitting there because he's, you know, can't get a job, couldn't even get a teaching job or even a doctoral degree from the Zurich Polytech. So,

he's out on the streets. He's a third class examiner in the Swiss patent office and all the world of physics is trying to figure out why is the speed of light constant. And there's this guy

light constant. And there's this guy Einstein sitting there on the stool looking at patent applications to synchronize distant clocks and you have to send a signal between them. And he

realizes that if you're moving real fast, the synchronization will look different because the signals will get to you at different time. He said,

"Well, the reason the speed of light is always constant, no matter how fast you're moving, is that if you move people in different states of motion, time is relative. Time is relative

depending on your state of motion." This

is like an total out of the box leap that even for 10 years, the physics community still hadn't gotten their head around and figured out, but is the true example of thinking different. Steve

Jobs had a more intuitive wisdom. He

said that when he came back from that trip to India I talked about he said I learned the limits of western empirical and rational thought and adopted the

intuition the intuition that you find in the villages of India this notion of just having a feel for something and you know that's that was his thing is that

he could just look at something he could just look at the design of something not care about market research not be at all like Bill Gates who could process data

with a ferocious intensity and speed but Steve could just say no I like it no you know no I don't like it yes and you know create great products so I found them

quite different but each one had that imaginative spark that sets people apart yes keying off of that

if if he was so brilliant about knowing what people wanted but wasn't so brilliant about people individually.

Could you speak about the difference between knowing a macro person versus a marriage or interpersonal relationships and how well he did or didn't do in that?

Well, Steve um like everything, it was a great divide. I mean, he had um deep

great divide. I mean, he had um deep strong interpersonal relationships. He

could charm you. He could be intense. He

could look everybody on the original Mac team I talked to and at the end they uh actually I when I was writing the book but after the book came out and Steve had died they had a meeting they were

talking about the book and Steve and they all agreed somebody said well did we like him and they agreed no but we wouldn't for the life of us have given up the opportunity to have been part of

this process that he was totally mesmerizing totally compelling that sort of thing he had great personal friendships relation relationships, had a great marriage. You know, when he

died, he's surrounded by his wife, his four children, his sister Mona Simpson.

So, he could have an intense interpersonal relationship. There was no

interpersonal relationship. There was no sort of fringes of the Asberger scale with Steve Jobs. In fact, he was almost too emotionally intense. He could just bore right into you and emotionally know you. On the other hand, he thought he

you. On the other hand, he thought he was special and the rules didn't apply to him and he could be quite tough on people when he was annoyed. Yeah.

So, Um, the agony and the ecstasy of Steve Jobs, the oneman show by Mike Mike Daisy. First of all, did he see it?

Daisy. First of all, did he see it?

And did he Steve?

Did he actually see it?

No. Steve Jobs or No, right. I I didn't think he would. Um,

right. I I didn't think he would. Um,

but I was curious to know, and I didn't see it in the book, whether you talked to him about the Fox Conroies.

I did. I couldn't get anything out of him. There are certain things that Steve

him. There are certain things that Steve Jobs just I mean his strength and his weakness was a total focus a maniacal I will pay attention to this and I won't pay attention to that and you could not

get him to focus on things that he did not want to focus upon and he didn't do manufacturing and you know that was and that was not something he looked at okay

he said well look you know you can go down philanthropy and China people you know all these things why don't you just wouldn't do it he did manufacturing. You described him, right? No, he loved doing manufacturing

right? No, he loved doing manufacturing early on, but then he outsources it to China and he's not going to sit there worrying about the conditions at the Fox Con factory. And you know, you can feel what

factory. And you know, you can feel what you want about that, but you write the biography of the person you're faced with, and that was Steve Jobs. Yeah.

Thank you. Um

you've talked about you've done written these amazing books on the personalities very much of these innovative people including one might argue Henry Kissinger but that's a political debate

and the wise men.

Yes exactly remembers that one.

So what have you learned about the innovation process from these individuals?

Yeah. Well, you know, if there were an easy one or two sentence answer to what makes innovation, then we wouldn't have the chance to write 600page books and have people buy them. That's what this

book is about, which is how are you driven by both a desire for art, art,

beauty, the poetry of it, and desire to apply that in a practical and technical way? What makes Steve Jobs that way? His

way? What makes Steve Jobs that way? His

ability to stand at that intersection was the ability to be a great innovator to make things that were objects not only of beauty but of emotion. I mean

people, you know, fondle their iPhones, you know, as if they're icons of the church. uh and when he dies all over the

church. uh and when he dies all over the world. I mean, you know, it the type of

world. I mean, you know, it the type of agilation that we usually reserve for drugged out rock stars and minor former princesses of England or something. You

know, people even at Occupy Wall Street down in Zakati Park, they're all pausing and building shrines of Steve Jobs, a billionaire, you know, uh industrialist.

Why? Because there was that emotion that I think he felt. But every part of his products conveyed emotion even the he had a design p a design patent on the

packages. So that when you that he was

packages. So that when you that he was in personally in his name and Johnny I's name so that when you open up that box to see the iPhone cradled in there the way it opens the way it feels I mean he

just could do that emotionally.

Yeah. John Jonathan

talk a little bit.

Yeah.

So first of all much the book is is great and I'm excited to be here. I'd

like to understand a little bit from your point of view about who are the people that Steve Jobs admired. So we

talked about his dad a little bit. You

talked about his experience in India, but where else did he really draw his influences from? Who are the people

influences from? Who are the people whose voices he heard when he was thinking?

Well, you know, I got to know him particularly well when I was editor of time and we were doing um the people of the century, the 100 most influential, the

person of the century. Uh we did a party. I just found out from I won't say

party. I just found out from I won't say but somebody at lunch today that he was really annoyed that Bill Gates got to speak at the 75th anniversary. We're

kicking that off and he was there and didn't speak. So, but while we were

didn't speak. So, but while we were picking the people of the century, he was doing the of think different ads. G

and we were same people, you know, it was Gandhi, uh, Einstein, Bob Dylan, Picasso and so he was deeply into this process that we

were doing and he was trying to get the pictures. In fact, he was really upset

pictures. In fact, he was really upset because the picture of Gandhi at the spinning wheel, as you may know, is a Margaret Bourke white picture owned by Life magazine and Life by having it the

stipulations could never be used for commercial purposes. And he went

commercial purposes. And he went ballistic because he couldn't use it for the Think Different ad. We finally just overruled the legal department at Time Life and it is the picture they have at the Think Different. Norm Pearlstein

came down and said he can use that picture. So we were doing that and you

picture. So we were doing that and you look at who are the people who think different and he wrote the copy for that ad which is here's to the misfits the

rebels um you know the people who etc etc and it ends with those who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do. So that was

the type of that's his pantheon of who he admired. In particular in music it

he admired. In particular in music it was Dylan. He felt that Bob Dylan had

was Dylan. He felt that Bob Dylan had just constantly reinvented himself and even in the speech the 1965-66 tours where he goes electric you know to

Steve that was this great inspiration Bob Dylan as for current people in the real world he liked he liked Mark Zuckerberg because he said look most people who are entrepreneurs they call

themselves entrepreneurs and they just create a product and try to sell out.

The hard thing is not to create a product, but to create a company that will continue to create great products.

Zuckerberg is trying his hardest not to sell out right away, but to create a lasting company. uh and uh you know so

lasting company. uh and uh you know so it's people like that he admired his mentors specifically people like Bill Hulet um Andy Grove at Intel you know he

really now I don't want to get too psycho babablish but you know having felt perhaps you know abandoned to some extent by a father he had a lot of

father figures you know Arthur Rock Andy Grove uh Mike Mara uh Bill Hulet of Hulet Packard and he really adopts a lot

of mentors and mentoring is important for him.

Yeah.

Hi, I had two questions. Um, first I mean I guess Steve Jobs know someone who's just been very hard to work with and I know he's not been a big fan of the press. What is it about you that

the press. What is it about you that made him choose you do you think?

Yeah, that was the one qu Well, I asked him that. He said, "Well, you can get

him that. He said, "Well, you can get people to talk and I wanted to feel independent. I don't want this to be an

independent. I don't want this to be an in-house book. I'm not even going to

in-house book. I'm not even going to read it." He said, "I'll have no control

read it." He said, "I'll have no control over it. You just do it." And you're the

over it. You just do it." And you're the type people get other people to talk.

So, uh, I wanted you. He also said, and I feel conceited saying, but he said, "I also think it should be somebody who's both good as a journalist, you know, reporting, but also has some historical

sense and knows how to deal with archives and that." Um, but why he opened up and why he didn't ask for control and why he wanted to talk, that

is the one mystery I couldn't quite figure out, especially in the past year when it just got deeper and deeper and he was always by the end I knew more

about him than I knew about myself, you know, he was really into it. And you had a second part and then we go here.

Sorry, quick question. I know you were mentioning the uh Occupy Wall Street element. Um, how is it that someone

element. Um, how is it that someone takes a product that's pretty much packaged and mainstream and manufactured u like you said he was really an industrialist and make it seem sort of

iconoclastic and maintain that image even when it becomes like pre yeah I mean the whole book has the theme of the counterculture hippieish you know new age Steve and the entrepreneurial

business technologist Steve and there is a conflict I mean even one of his previous girlfriends and people he went to India with it was like wait a in it.

You have the Zen mentality and antimmaterialism and yet you're creating the greatest consumer objects of desire ever. To

understand Steve is to know that there are conflicts within Steve and this is what makes him a very complex dude.

Um to her point about why he chose you um this experience of uh writing this book or your relationship with him, how did it change you? How did did it transform you in any way?

It's a good question.

Steve was not I mean I'm going to be a little too revealing here perhaps, but Steve was not nice. And it was randomly not nice to a whole lot of different people. You go to restaurants, they used

people. You go to restaurants, they used to, you know, people at Apple sometimes would say, "Okay, we're going with Steve. Can you come out?" Because he

Steve. Can you come out?" Because he would sometimes be so tough on waitresses, but if I was there, he'd be a little bit less so maybe or something.

I found myself knowing that I can be rude, brusque, whatever, and always trying now to be aware. I mean, I will

never invent the iPod or the iPad, but I can be nicer than Steve. And so I tried.

It's a low bar. Um,

so I tried to remember how to be, you know, how to, you know, be careful on things like that. Um but there are

various other ways. I also try harder to think differently. I mean to know that

think differently. I mean to know that it's the out of the box solution that can often be the answer.

Yeah.

Did your hours change watching how he works and how you work?

No, not really. I work at night.

After his death, his sister penned an op-ed where she talked about his last words and she said, I think, "Oh, wow.

Oh wow.

Oh wow. Oh wow. as someone who talked to him about his spiritual life a bit. I

wonder if you have any thoughts about that. And yeah, I was there when that

that. And yeah, I was there when that was actually Mona's Simpsons eulogy uh at the funeral.

Um you know, and he as he's dying or you know, he sort of just stares beyond everybody and says, "Oh, well, well, well." It's a mystery. I of course do

well." It's a mystery. I of course do not know, nor does anybody. And it's

sort of wonderful that Steve who always thought that life was a journey and you never knew the end that it was all a mystery leaves us one more beautiful

mystery with his death. So

in the process of interviewing him in the process of interviewing him do you think he discovered anything about

himself and if so what was it?

He get there were layers after layers.

The first six months, first year it was hard to get underneath and then he just in some ways we take long walks. We'd

just sit in the garden and he would talk and he got very emotional. He cried a whole lot. Um and he tried to understand

whole lot. Um and he tried to understand what made him so emotional. He was a very very self-aware person unlike you

know as I said the emotional thing. It

wasn't like the average tech geek who can't make eye contact. He had trouble not staring, you know, and getting into your soul. And uh I think that depth of

your soul. And uh I think that depth of emotion is key to who he was. And he always

tried to explain it or you know cuz you'd start by asking the surface questions like you know at times like why are you so mean to people and stuff and then you would just get more and

more of that self-reflection about the passions he had and the things that drove him. Mhm.

drove him. Mhm.

He ever acknowledge or admit that he that he made a mistake in not having surgery when they first discovered his uh his cancer?

Well, you know, we'll never know. Nobody

will ever know. Doctors don't know whether the cancer and the um pancreas met myst met metastasized

um you know right away before they even saw it whether if he had had surgery earlier he would have caught it and he uh

knocked it out. Uh he definitely had those two sides to his personality the counterculture side and the scientific side. So there he is doing both. he's

side. So there he is doing both. he's

trying alternative treatments and diets and acupuncture. On the other hand, he's

and acupuncture. On the other hand, he's having his DNA sequenced and right at the cutting edge of uh you know really probably the one of the first people ever to have a full genetic sequencing

and then to have tailored drugs done genetically. You know the fact that it

genetically. You know the fact that it took a long time for him to sort of juggle both and then go with the con, you know, more uh fact-based medicine

treatment.

I think he regretted, but he never knew, nor could he know. If I had only got it and operated on two months earlier, we would have caught it.

Wonder how your work with him influenced your definition of leadership.

Yeah. Um,

it made me realize there's not a definition of leadership. There are many many styles of leadership that the exact you can read Ben Franklin and Steve Jobs and see two exact opposite styles of

leadership.

They're both extraordinary individuals who you know and so there are different ways of doing things and even at the birth of our republic you needed to have

the people I mentioned the Adamses who are passionate but you needed the George Washingtons who are austere and elevated and above everything and you needed the really smart people like Jefferson and

Madison and you needed the guy like Ben Franklin who could bring people together. So I if somebody says what is

together. So I if somebody says what is the lesson you know they keep asking me why don't you write a lessons of leadership book or recipes there is no

one way of doing it. Kissinger had a way the wise men had their own way. Franklin

Roosevelt had one way and Harry Truman had a totally different way and they were both good leaders. Steve Jobs was the most inspiring technology leader of

our day and generation, but he was totally different from a Ben Franklin, you know, and so you can buy a lot of management books. This isn't a

management books. This isn't a management book. You can buy great

management book. You can buy great leadership books that say here, you know, seven seven ways to effective leadership. I think those books tend to,

leadership. I think those books tend to, you know, be bull. I think you have to look at real people in this real world

and say Obama can lead this way. Clinton

could lead in a totally different way.

Reagan could lead in a totally different way. What are the combinations of

way. What are the combinations of elements that can make you effective but there's no one here's the recipe of leadership.

Yeah. Rick,

one of the things that listening to you know a bit about jobs before you put him into a book, one of the things that's intriguing is whether or not financial

success, corporate success was important to him. I asked because Apple was one of

to him. I asked because Apple was one of the companies, as you well know, which was notable for having had its board and its management manipulate stock options.

Correct. and Steve Jobs stock options that were falsified. They were

backdated. Here's a guy who comes out with eight billion dollar net worth. Uh

you're talking about a few I don't know 50 60 80 hundred million dollars at that point. It's peanuts. How does he get

point. It's peanuts. How does he get into that? I don't I don't understand

into that? I don't I don't understand what aspect of his personality and there's no aspect of the personality because once again it's unbelievably contradictory his feelings about money

and without accepting exactly all the premises to your question because it's I think it's in the book it's slightly more complicated but you're basic but you're right they got trouble for backdating options the ones he got in

trouble for were not exactly Steve's but he's you know sort of saying I'm working for a dollar a year but then he's getting these options and he said my attitude I guess about that. He said,

"My attitude to money is really sort of I'm not motivated and I find it an odd thing." I was penniless as I'm going

thing." I was penniless as I'm going through India. No money at all. I can't

through India. No money at all. I can't

even buy, you know, food or something barefoot in India. And a few years later, I have hundreds of millions of dollars because Apple went public. I was

very poor, very rich. So, money's not a motivator. But then if money's not a

motivator. But then if money's not a motivator and he's proudly working at a dollar a year. In fact, this past year he worked at a dollar a year and yet

he's there worrying about the options and I have in the book this long thing where he's telling the board if you really value me you would you know get cash in these options give me a new set

of options etc etc. Uh and was it contradictory? Yes. Just

like everything I'm saying about Steve, there's this great contradiction of, you know, being anti-materialist and making objects of desire, saying you don't care about money at all, but worrying about

your options. He does not end up I mean,

your options. He does not end up I mean, his wealth mainly comes from Pixar being bought by Disney, I think, more than even Apple. You know, here's somebody

even Apple. You know, here's somebody who when he died had created the most valuable company on earth. I mean,

that's what Apple was. I mean uh when Steve stepped down and uh and he did it from a company that was basically

bankrupt when he came back in 1997 on the Forbes list there are dozens of people ahead of him who've created no value for our society certainly haven't created the most valuable company but

have it basically done financial manipulations or whatever or created financial instruments and done something that really is not of value in terms of what they've created. So you can defend

or criticize Steve, but it's not a simple question his relationship to wealth. Sorry, you were I had you. Yeah.

wealth. Sorry, you were I had you. Yeah.

What's interesting is that the role of journalism and writing a book about someone who's been in the digital world that you're standing sort

of at the confluence of two factors. You

know, right now there's a lot to be said about what's happening uh to to the newsprint world.

Yeah. And so I wonder whether you see that conflict as well between sort of a tactile world and a digital world.

Well, no, I actually think that the world of books and journalism, just like the world of music, may have been helped enormously by Steve's creations. I mean,

we were idiots, you know, 15 years ago in the journalism business, creating Time magazines or your favorite, the New York Times and charging people quite a bit for a subscription to it and then taking the entire thing and putting it

on the web totally for free and giving it away. This is not a business model

it away. This is not a business model that makes sense. But with the iPad, you can now create apps. People simply

you know that you know $2.99 for an iTunes store or constant subscription.

And so it gives us a way out of that conundrum of giving away digital content for free. Whether I get the New York

for free. Whether I get the New York Times online or on paper, and I get both, is somewhat irrelevant to me. I am sitting here, you

know, today reading the New York Times on Steve Jobs's announcement about the textbook industry that he's just I shouldn't say he has, he's no longer with us, but that before he died, he wanted to upend. And it was announced

today, here's how they're going to do it. Uh, I don't care whether that's on

it. Uh, I don't care whether that's on paper or in print. But for the business model to work, same with my music. I

don't care whether I get it on a CD or download it, but for the business model to work, you have to have some way to pay for it. And I think Steve Jobs understood that. And there may be hope

understood that. And there may be hope for us in the last two questions because I see two hands right there and then there. Yeah.

there. Yeah.

Thank you. Um, you mentioned that uh he wouldn't talk about philanthropy.

Yeah.

So, so I'd like to ask you to talk about philanthropy. It seems to me, you know,

philanthropy. It seems to me, you know, the countercultural ethic includes a sense of community and responsibility and and so I guess we have another contradiction here, but you have speculation on that.

Well, yeah. I mean, the notion of community and responsibility and giving back were not part of his lexicon. His

wife, on the other hand, is a great philanthropist and deeply involved in community and everything else. When Bill

Gates calls up Steve Jobs, said, "I want you to be part of the giving pledge."

Steve won't even call him back. I mean,

he just ridicules Bill Gates to me for this whole giving pledge sort of thing.

And I say, "Well, look, he, you know, you care about education, right, to Stephen. You know, Bill Gates is, you

Stephen. You know, Bill Gates is, you know, leveraging his philanthropy to do wonderful things in the world of education." And Steve says, you know,

education." And Steve says, you know, he's a criminal and just wants to cleanse his name or something. and all

these things Steve would say. But he

also sort of implies something that today I think was proven true at 10 this morning, which is he said in the end for all of what Bill Gates is doing in the

field of education philanthropy, the iPad will do more to change education than any philanthropist ever will. I'm

going to focus on the iPad. And look,

the iPad is going to transform both how we do lectures in schools, how textbooks are written, that whole thing. So I

obviously believe in philanthropy. I

believe in community spirit. I believe

that you really do have to be part of something larger than just what you're doing. Having said that, I write the biography about the person

who's in front of me. And this is what Steve believed. Last question. Yeah,

Steve believed. Last question. Yeah,

thank you for writing a wonderful book.

Thanks.

Um, Steve Jobs wanted his epitap to be a great company that lasts. To the extent that he ran Apple as a thief with a board that caved time and again, to what

extent do you feel like he was getting in his own way, how would you handicap Apple's future now that he's gone?

Yeah, he, you know, got in his way certainly by 1985 when he's ousted. Um

the question is did he imprint into the DNA of Apple that belief in beauty and design connected to amazing feats of engineering so that it endures

not only for the next decade but let's say the next few generations the way Disney did and Disney Walt Disney was not a nice guy either and by the way that company went through a lot of rough

patches but he did ingrain in the DNA the notion of beauty and creativity and the miracle of the imagination as Walt Disney would say with you And so that works. When Steve goes to his last

works. When Steve goes to his last meeting of the Apple board, when he's stepping down in August, uh, after he reads his letter of stepping down, some people on the board

start making fun of HP. Hlet Packard for that day having folded its tablet and gotten out of the PC business or whatever. And Steve says, "Wait a

whatever. And Steve says, "Wait a minute. Bill Hulet gave me my first job

minute. Bill Hulet gave me my first job when I was 13 years old. and he and David Packard thought they had created a company that wasn't just going to make great products because they moved from,

you know, oscillators to calculators to computers or whatever. They continued to always innovate and they thought they had left a company that would do that.

And these bozos messed it up. Don't let

that happen to Apple because in the end, nobody's going to remember us for a product or two they created, but they will remember a century from now that we created a company that

continually made good product. I think

that he really has ingrained that in the current leadership at Apple. Johnny IV

is awesome. Tim Cook, Scott Forestto, Phil Schiller, Eddie Q, they get it.

I think you know what happens 10 years from now I don't know he was as you said somebody who ran rough shot and therefore probably didn't lead

corporately by the book you know this notion let's separate the CEO from the chairman and have no Steve used his board as it a sounding board so he's not

that way but he did create I think a company that does value this particular thing not putting profits over the product but

putting the perfection of the product and the beauty of the product first and uh I think it's quite an inspiration in a time when most companies are profit

maximizing by making products that turn out to be commodities. Thank you all very much. [applause]

very much. [applause] I will um go outside and anybody wants to I will sign books. If you don't we'll just continue talking.