Warren Buffet & Charlie Munger's Greatest Lessons

In 2010, a friend of mine told me about a podcast. I was like, "What is that?"

a podcast. I was like, "What is that?"

He's like, "Well, this show that you like, it's live stream, but if you miss a live stream, you can listen to it anytime you want." And he showed me the Apple directory. So, I just started

Apple directory. So, I just started doing a solo [music] history show where it's just talking about all the books I'm reading. And I didn't expect anybody

I'm reading. And I didn't expect anybody to listen to it. I just did it because I I felt compelled to. And then I started getting really weird messages. I was

getting like 2,000word essays about how this podcast is changing my life. And I

was like, "Oh, I'm like I hit on something here. I have zero energy to

something here. I have zero energy to interview anybody. I have infinite

interview anybody. I have infinite energy to talk to smart, driven founders. I can do that every day for

founders. I can do that every day for the rest of my life." He goes, "Dude, I just with Brad Jacobs. You know who this is?" And I was like, "Yeah." He sent me

is?" And I was like, "Yeah." He sent me like his new book. And he goes, "You know the founders guy? I love founders."

And so he starts sending me messages that he's like, "I'm addicted to your book reviews." I do this episode on

book reviews." I do this episode on Brad's first book, which is [music] how to make a few billion dollars. That

episode goes viral. Probably has a million people listen to it. I ran into him at a birthday party. And he walks up to me, he goes, "I love you." I go, "Why?" He goes, "You made me famous." I

"Why?" He goes, "You made me famous." I

go, "I definitely did not." Like most people are rat poison. Charlie had no filter. He's like, "Most of humanity,

filter. He's like, "Most of humanity, they're not high-quality people, and you should avoid them." So the main piece of advice that he gave us was, >> "Hey, your job right now is very obvious. You need to build a seamless

obvious. You need to build a seamless web of deserved trust with really highquality people and talk to nobody else."

else." >> Everybody knows that I was 35 when I met Buffett and Buffet was 28. What they

didn't know is that there was a bunch of other of our friends and guys around us.

We built a seamless desert trust and we did deals together for decades. This is

a year I'm going to pull the trigger and I'm going to do this new show and we started recording in May, launches September. I think it'll go back and be

September. I think it'll go back and be one of the best decisions I ever made in my life. I guess the important part is

my life. I guess the important part is like I want to offer like an alternative to start, scale, sell because I've talked to so many founders that started that scaled that sold and are

unbelievably depressed or unhappy or realizing that was my best idea. I have

four decades of life ahead of me and I can't take that back. It's like man you're going to get the money anyways or there's other ways to do what you want to do. Like just don't give up.

to do. Like just don't give up.

>> If you could define 2026 in one word, what would you want the word to It can't be one word, but I'm very interested in seeing how far I can take this.

[music] [music] >> David Sra, welcome to Sorcery.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> So, you have a new show. It's called

David Senra by David Senra. by David

Zenra. Featuring David Zenra, but it's also produced by David Zenra.

>> Actually, it's produced by Sycom.

>> It's produced by Sycom.

>> Yeah, Media.

>> That's Andrew Herman and Rob Moore's media company.

>> How'd that happen?

>> Oh, that's a funny story. Rob Moore, who is Andrew Hman's co-founder and a really close friend of mine, sent me a DM, I think in 2022, and he's like, "I've

never sent anybody a DM in my life or another podcaster DM in my life. I just

discovered your podcast last week, which is Founders Podcast, and [snorts] I I've never found anything like this. I

would love to talk to you about it. And

we wind up getting on the phone like a day later. And the first time we talked,

day later. And the first time we talked, we talked for like two hours. And he was just explaining like how they built Andrew Human's podcast. You know, this guy was essentially an obscure professor at Stanford till he was like 45 years

old. and some and at the time Rob was in

old. and some and at the time Rob was in PR and he was actually booking trying to get Andrew booked on a bunch of podcasts because he was writing a book and Andrew would go on other podcasts and perform

so well and he would be asked back over and over again and so Rob had the idea like why don't we start our own podcast.

So anyways, at the time they had built the the the biggest health podcast in the world and they were looking for other people, this is his words, that are like Andrew in different domains and

we're like he was essentially pitching me to be recruited onto the network. So

to move founders from the independent show that it was onto their network and I was like you're two weeks too late.

This isn't public. But I have a verbal agreement with this guy named Patrick Christy from like the best and he just signed me to Colossus. And so we just wind up being friends and I'd fly out to

Malibu, hang out with them, we talk podcasting and then once I knew I was going to launch another show because I go around as you already know this but people listening don't. I'll go and probably collect more information on podcasting almost anybody else in the

world. So like literally like I flew to

world. So like literally like I flew to Stockholm two or three times this year just to hang out with the people at Spotify um because I like them. They're

friends but also to learn a lot about podcasting. Uh just flew to New York to

podcasting. Uh just flew to New York to have breakfast with the head of podcast for Spotify named Roman who lives in Berlin. And I was like, "Next time

Berlin. And I was like, "Next time you're in New York, just tell me."

Literally just flew to New York just to have breakfast with them. Fly like all over the country just to spend like a have breakfast, dinner, a day with any other podcasters. And I it was obvious

other podcasters. And I it was obvious to me they were by far and away the best team in podcasting in terms of like the product they put out, how they think about it, uh the quality of what they do, and then the business they built

around it. And so when it's time to

around it. And so when it's time to partner with somebody on the new show, I was like, "Oh, these are obviously the guys I want to work with."

And you were 400 you're 407 episodes into Founders now.

>> Yeah. So almost 10 years. 47 that are numbered. And then I did some really

numbered. And then I did some really complicated things where I would like have bonus episodes and I was like, "Oh, it's not really the same." So don't number them. I think I have like 430

number them. I think I have like 430 425 episodes I've made. And then on the new show, I think we've just released episode seven.

>> Okay. So it's been a whole evolution.

And when you released the new show, it was September 23rd, 2025. We're about 3 months out. Today is December 22nd, by

months out. Today is December 22nd, by the way, if you didn't know that. It's

like three months.

>> I don't know what date is.

>> Math. When you posted that, I quote tweeted it and I was like, "A new era of podcasts has just begun."

>> That sounds like something you'd say.

>> Yeah. Well, I did say it. Okay. and

[laughter] and so um but I think I thought that was really fascinating because it's like an entirely new format, but like you're doing something different than most podcasters had done before when they're trying to evolve their podcasts. Like

you've been really obsessed with it for a really long time. Can you just like talk about how you got into podcast and then the evolution to today?

>> I I think for me, I know some people use podcasting as entertainment. I just

think they're one of the most like miraculous tools for education. So the

way I think about what podcasting actually is, I think podcasting is uh the printing press for the spoken word.

And so since I don't have memories before I had a love and obsession with reading and so probably I don't know five six years old, I just absolutely fell in love with reading. It's

something it's a daily habit of like essentially an unbroken daily habit that I've had for decades. And it's

essentially just taught myself everything that I wanted to know through books. And when I was younger, I

books. And when I was younger, I realized, oh, like I started getting obsessed with talk radio because podcasts weren't a thing at that time.

And I was like, "Oh, this is just like another form of education. Like, if I'm not looking at a book, I can be listening to somebody else talk about a subject matter." And at the time, you'd

subject matter." And at the time, you'd have to like be in the car and it'd be like AM radio. And I didn't even care what the subject matter was. I was just so voracious for information. I was

looking for now looking back I was just looking for useful information on how to build a great life because I didn't have I wasn't raised in an environment where I had any mentors or saw any really good role models any by any means and so I

think this was just me trying to like find you know a positive example and a role model and so I'd listen to talk radio about politics didn't even care about politics sports current affairs

there was like a rel I was I was like a kid and I was listening to like a relationship advice show at night I didn't have a relationship I don't even think I was in puberty yet I didn't know anything about this.

>> Was this Delilah?

>> Yes. Do you know this? [laughter] Is it >> Well, she's she's like a legend.

>> Yes. Delila after dark. So embarrassing

to even say that, but again, I was a kid. I [laughter] didn't know any

kid. I [laughter] didn't know any better. And um and so then I remember

better. And um and so then I remember like, oh, now you can I remember the shift from AM radio to being able to stream it in the browser. And then in 2010, a friend of mine told me about a

podcast. I was like, "What is that?"

podcast. I was like, "What is that?"

He's like, "Well, this show that you like it, it's live stream, but if you miss the live stream, you can listen to it anytime you want." And he showed me the Apple directory. And from 2010 until

2016, when I started my first podcast, I ran through thousands of episodes. And

I'm like obsessed with history. So, I'd

learned a ton about history and religion and sports and business and all kinds of things. And to the point where I was

things. And to the point where I was just like, man, I love podcasting so much and I'm learning so much from it.

And because I've been exposed to thousands of them, I was like, I think I could do this. Like, I think I can actually make something that's interesting and better uh than what's out there. And so, I just started doing

out there. And so, I just started doing a solo history show where it's just talking about all the books that I I'm I'm reading. And I didn't expect anybody

I'm reading. And I didn't expect anybody to listen to it. I just did it because I I felt compelled to like I was just I want to try to make something. And then

really fast, I did not have a large audience, but I started getting really weird messages. So, like you know,

weird messages. So, like you know, you've read through, I'm sure, a bunch of your reviews on Apple Podcasts, like, "Hey, normally it's like, "Hey, great show." or whatever. I was getting like

show." or whatever. I was getting like 2,000word essays about how this podcast is changing my life. And I was like, "Oh, I'm like, I hit on something here."

Um, and then it took several years after that to like figure out the business model and the format and like really narrow the focus on just entrepreneurs because I was reading a bunch of different books. Um, but I just as soon

different books. Um, but I just as soon as I started uh started in 2016 and then I kind of snapped in 2018, I was like, I'm going to do this for the rest of my life and there was no business model back then. I was just like, I trust that

back then. I was just like, I trust that if I work on something seven days a week and I focus and put all my energy into it, I will figure out the business model. And so from that day, that that

model. And so from that day, that that epiphany I had in 2018, I have yet to miss like a single upload. Now, what

what is that? Six years later, seven years later.

>> This reminds me a lot of this really iconic figure. Have you heard of Marty

iconic figure. Have you heard of Marty Supreme?

>> Yes. Yes, [laughter] I have.

>> Would you say you're the Marty Supreme of podcasters?

>> Would you?

>> No.

>> No. Would you say that I'm the Marty Supreme podcast?

>> I don't know. I haven't watched the movie. [laughter]

movie. [laughter] >> Which part are you talking about? The

trailer like what what part specifically jumped out at you?

>> You tell me.

I think there's a part in the trailer um and I like posted some of this on my stories and and in fact I'm friends with Chris Williamson who's one of the biggest podcasters in the world and he responded to the story. I thought it was hilarious. But uh he he said you know

hilarious. But uh he he said you know this guy's playing ping pong or whatever and he's like you're going to see he's like you don't understand this game fills stadiums overseas. You're going to see my face on a Wedies box. And I cut I

clipped that and then I was like this is exactly how I feel about podcasting. I

think it's inevitable. And Chris just laughed and laughed and laughed. But

there is one thing that I definitely identify with where he's like he's talking to Gwyneth Paltro, which I think might have been like his love interest in the movie. I haven't seen it yet either.

>> I think it's his mom.

>> No, he was definitely hitting on her. He

was like trying to get her. Yeah.

>> Oh, I should watch the movie.

>> Yeah, it's definitely not his mom. No,

no, it's definitely not his mom cuz he's like he calls her on the trailer. He's

like, "I've never I saw you at the plaza yesterday. I've never talked to a movie

yesterday. I've never talked to a movie star before." And he's like, "Do you

star before." And he's like, "Do you have the Daily Mail in front of you?"

And and he's like, "Look, I'm in the newspaper." And she's like, "This is

newspaper." And she's like, "This is you?" That that didn't give me mom

you?" That that didn't give me mom vibes. That gave me romantic vibes. But

vibes. That gave me romantic vibes. But

she's just like, "Do you make any money at this little thing?" And you know, your little ping-pong thing. He's like,

"Not yet." And she goes, "What what are you going to do if this doesn't work out?" He goes, "That doesn't even enter

out?" He goes, "That doesn't even enter my consciousness." And that's definitely

my consciousness." And that's definitely how I felt. I was just like, "I have a lot of self-confidence, self-belief." I

was like, "If I dedicate my attention to something, I will make that thing happen in the world." It just took a lot longer than I anticipated.

>> Yeah. And so, okay, go going through the eraser and why this is a new era of podcasting. You went from one format to

podcasting. You went from one format to another. You did a solo show and now

another. You did a solo show and now you're interviewing other people. And

specifically for this new show, it's funny, but you really focus on like the world's greatest entrepreneurs. And that

really reduces down to mostly billionaires. And some would say you're

billionaires. And some would say you're also the billionaire whisperer. And so

now you're studying and you're talking to these people one-on-one and you're having conversations. So, how did you

having conversations. So, how did you figure out who you wanted to interview and who have you interviewed so far for people that don't have context?

>> I think one thing is I I don't think about what I'm doing as interviewing.

Okay. I think about like having conversations. Like I one of my favorite

conversations. Like I one of my favorite things to do essentially I work all day during the day making founders podcast and then at night I'm usually hanging out with founders. I don't really have any friends that aren't founders and we have these incredible multi-hour

conversations about business and life and love and all kinds of like deep topics like deep human topics and I was having these conversations because

founders essentially I would argue has probably the most valuable audience in the world in terms of the people that listen to it and most of the the first guests like the the reason we came out with such really like high quality

guests they came from my existing audience and I was able to build relationships with them and I spent time with them. And so I say, "Hey, do you

with them. And so I say, "Hey, do you want to I'm launching this new thing.

Will you do this with me?" They were I think every single person said yes. They

were very very receptive of it. But the

the genesis of this, there's two things that happened. The genesis of this was I

that happened. The genesis of this was I already mentioned Patrick Shaughnessy, who's played a huge role in uh my life.

I just released an episode with him. I

was actually on the phone with him on the drive over here and he had been pushing me for a long time because a solo history podcast is not the optimal

format for this medium of podcasting.

When people think of podcasting, they think of exactly what's happening right now, one person talking to another. And

I am also very competitive and I think I'm really really I try to be really I try to be the best in the world at what I do and everything I do. And I put a lot of time and energy and resources into doing that. And I was like, well, I actually would like to compete at the

highest levels. Like Founders has, you

highest levels. Like Founders has, you know, millions of people listen to it, but it is still relatively niche because it's like this crazy guy sitting in a room reading 407 biographies or autobiographies of

history entrepreneurs and essentially just ripping through idea after idea for 45 minutes to an hour where two people talking is so much easier to listen to.

You just feel like you're just sitting in there with them. And it's just I there's a reason that that is the optimal uh format of like the medium.

And when I Patrick is pushing me to do this, a bunch of people said, "Hey man, you're having these crazy conversations and most of the people are at dinner with me or or at these events with me and they hear the conversations we have and like I wish you would record this."

And so being but I was being pushed in that direction. I was like, "No, it's

that direction. I was like, "No, it's kind of a like it's a it's a distraction for what I want to do." And what I realized is like, well, it's only a distraction if like unless if I can

somehow make this effortless, which is pick the people that you're intensely interested in. And then just like when

interested in. And then just like when you show up, you don't know. We don't

know what we're going to talk about beforehand. Like, so when I go, the

beforehand. Like, so when I go, the genesis of this is me and Patrick were in New York and this is the first time I was meeting Daniel Atenerson. We had

exchanged messages. He's the founder of Spotify. He had told me he's a big fan

Spotify. He had told me he's a big fan of the podcast. He was he's very nice to me. Patrick had known him for several

me. Patrick had known him for several years. He had been on uh Patrick's show,

years. He had been on uh Patrick's show, I think, several times at this point.

So, we're end up having dinner. We end

up talking for four hours and the dinner ends. I'm getting in the car with

ends. I'm getting in the car with Patrick because we're going to go back to Greenidge where Patrick lives and I'm spending the night at his house and the first thing he says as soon as the door shuts, he's like, "You've got to record these conversations." He's like, "I've

these conversations." He's like, "I've known Daniel for four years." He goes, first, he said, "I spoke 2% of the time, which is very Patrick-l like. You spoke

49% of the time. Daniel spoke 49% of the time." He goes, "You got more out of him

time." He goes, "You got more out of him in four hours than I have in four years." He's like, "No one can in the

years." He's like, "No one can in the world can speak to the soul of the founder like you can. You have to start recording these conversations." And that was really the genesis of like, "Oh, wait. I can do this. It's not a

wait. I can do this. It's not a distraction. I have this crazy network

distraction. I have this crazy network that comes from the podcast. I just need a team to do everything else besides I'm picking the person I want to talk to and I'm having the conversation in the manner that I want to have it exactly like I want to have it." And the reason

I say it's important to distinguish between an interview and conversation is like every the world does not need another let's interview entrepreneur podcasts and

that's not my that's not what I'm there for when people when this first came out and I was like well I can have a very differentiated conversation because everything that Daniel's telling me or Michael Dell is telling me or Brad Jacobs or any of these people telling me

I run it through all this information that I've learned over the last 10 years about how his case entrepreneurs think and so therefore I can create a very differentiated podcast and so when it when the first few episodes drop they're like I don't get why is this guy

speaking so much and it's just like because it's a conversation on interview and this is the way I I have zero energy to interview anybody. I have infinite energy to talk to smart driven founders.

I can do that every day for the rest of my life.

>> What do you think of the push back on it?

>> There's actually interesting philosophical topic we can talk about here. Um

here. Um in many cases you see this in a lot of biographies and then if you just you know study uh public figures anyways you realize that a lot of the things that

their greatest strengths can also be their greatest weaknesses and the closest I have to I was very skeptical my entire life because I'm not a trusting person and I think there's a

good reason why I wasn't trusting person. I keep you know I'm insular by

person. I keep you know I'm insular by nature. I don't let new people into my

nature. I don't let new people into my life easily. I keep everybody like at an

life easily. I keep everybody like at an arms distance away. Once you break through that, like I am kind of like my hard exterior is like kind of soft. You

have a little bit of this too. I I do think it's very beneficial for you to be able to organize your thoughts with another person that you trust that they care about you that they they're not transaction with you and that they want

they have your best interest at heart.

And so, um, there's this guy named Sam Hinky who plays this role in my life in addition to like a lot of my close friends where I like I there's a handful of guys, maybe five, that I do trust and I talk about like almost everything else

that I'm going in my life, but this is much more of like I consider Sam like a like an older brother. He we're friends, but like almost like a coach, even though he wouldn't um even though he

wouldn't like categorize it like that, he's just like, "We're friends. I think

you do great work and like I care about you and I want the best things for you.

And he's worried that, you know, some of the things that got me to where I am now. If I don't change, they're going to

now. If I don't change, they're going to stop me from getting where I want to go.

And so his whole thing was um you've got to learn to like trust people and like let people in. And he obviously knows that I've done that slowly but surely.

He's one of them. He knows a handful of people I actually trust with with, you know, with my life. And this also applies to business. The me and Patrick had a multi-year deal. No paper. It was

this is what I'm going to do. This is

what you're gonna do. And like we're just gonna like we trust each other. Uh

same thing with Rob Moore and Andrew Herman. Like I we trust each other. Like

Herman. Like I we trust each other. Like

I'm clearly am changing and like letting more people in and trusting. But the

answer question about like the response back uh like what did I do with that that feedback?

Hanky's point to me, Sam Hickeykey's point to me was, you know, a normal person when they factor in like whose opinion act actually matters to them.

And so like Sam's case, it's just, you know, maybe 60% of the opinions of other people that are not his own that matter to him is like, you know, his family.

And then, you know, maybe his closest friends, they each get like another 5%.

You know, so maybe you're up to 70 80%.

Maybe his dad, maybe some other people.

And then maybe you get to like 95% maybe it's like 5% of the outside world's opinion matters in terms of like the what he's doing and

his conduct. And he's like with you 99%

his conduct. And he's like with you 99% of the opinion that you value is your own. [laughter]

own. [laughter] And so he's like it got you to where you probably built you know one of the best one of the best podcasts in the world because you just did it the way you wanted to do it and you trusted that.

But if you don't change and you don't let the right people in, you're not going to learn enough to get it's going to limit your your the ceiling of what you can accomplish. And so I'm still at

probably 96%.

But it didn't bother me at all. Like I

know one thing I do know is like I probably have collected more information on podcasting than any else in the world. And I I trust my judgment and

world. And I I trust my judgment and like I want to build things how I want to build them and I'm fine with some people loving it and some people hating it. That doesn't bother me at all. What

it. That doesn't bother me at all. What

have been your biggest learnings since you started?

>> One of the best pieces of advice that I've gotten over and over again is most people are not like taken out by competition. Most people sabotage

competition. Most people sabotage themselves. And one thing I did not like

themselves. And one thing I did not like founders was a very slow it just like compounded slowly over a decade and then it got into something that's like big and meaningful. But it it felt the same

and meaningful. But it it felt the same dayto-day to me. This one was not like that at all. the the launch one I had a public platform so from day one obviously people are going to be like

paying attention what's going on the launch video goes viral I released the Daniel Ek episode which we recorded like months earlier by accident the same week that he says I'm going to step down from

seal of Spotify and so like what I'm saying is what I didn't like was the like I just got shot out of a cannon and the mistake I made for the first few days after I was like reading the comments and everything

>> and what I realized like, hey, I need to essentially mute the world and just make the products that I want to make. I am

Stephen King has this great thing in his autobiography where he's like, I'm not just the the writer, I'm the first reader. And so I listen to every single

reader. And so I listen to every single podcast before it goes out. And so like I'm not only did I make it, but I'm the first listener. And so I needed a way to

first listener. And so I needed a way to just center myself where it's like, okay, Founders is just the books that I'm intensely interested in reading. And

the new show David Center by David Center, produced by David Center [laughter] is just the the people I'm intensely interested in speaking to. And what I happen to be most interested in is I'm

not, you know, we we were both like around a lot of like the startups and VCs. I'm not interested in that at all. I'm in fact my friend

Justin uh Mayors who you know was one of my closest friends. He just made an announcement that he raised a bunch of money. And I told him I was just like

money. And I told him I was just like raising money is not an accomplishment.

So I'm not going to say congratulations.

Building a durable business is an accomplishment. So like hopefully he

accomplishment. So like hopefully he uses money to build a durable business.

But like congratulations is not the right term here. Um I'm only interested in people that do that succeed at what they're doing for a very long time. One

of my biggest fears is like you can be successful for a year, for five years, even for 10 years. I want to be successful until I die. I don't want to lose what I'm doing. And so I'm I I

optimize and I prioritize for durability over every single thing else. And so if you look at the first few guests, it's like first guest has been building Spotify for 20 years. Michael Dell's

been an entrepreneur for 41 years. Todd

Graves has been uh running raising canes for 30 years. Brad Jacobs has been entrepreneur for 46 years. It just goes on and on and on. Michael Oitz, you know, for half a century. These are the people I'm most interested in speaking

to because they're so much further down the road. They make me look like a child

the road. They make me look like a child even though I've been doing what I've been doing at a high hopefully a high level for 10 years but they this just happened. So um I I forgot I was talking

happened. So um I I forgot I was talking to some young founder and I don't normally talk to a bunch of young founders. Um and I was trying to explain

founders. Um and I was trying to explain to him I was like you have like all your friends are essentially like in your 20s and you're all like doing startups. I

was in New York last week and there's a guy I'm trying to get to do his first podcast ever. He is 71 years old. He

podcast ever. He is 71 years old. He

just sold his company for $60 billion.

He'd been working in the company since he was 20. The amount of information that he was able to convey to me in an hour would take like a 25-year-old startup founder decades. You just can't

because you you haven't seen enough life. You don't know enough yet. The

life. You don't know enough yet. The

smartest 25-year-old is is like is a lot dumber than this 71-year-old, you know, man with with 50 years of entrepreneurial experience. Um, and so

entrepreneurial experience. Um, and so what I would say is like what I've learned from them is the power of I had that I highly suspected that going in.

But the power of this deep knowledge you only get that if you're if you do not interrupt the compounding and you just let time carry most of the weight.

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>> So, I was thinking about this because you're going after like such I would say like a niche set of guests. I mean, I joke around you're just interested in old people

>> kind of [laughter and gasps] >> I'm interested in like obviously like a lot of tech and like emerging companies like we do a lot of their announcements cuz it's it's really good hook for

getting the longer story out of them and everything. I bet you're not doing like

everything. I bet you're not doing like fundraising announcements next year though.

>> I'm barely doing it now. Yeah, I'm

barely >> because the value in the ter like the value in that >> it was amazing product market fit over the summer and like finding that conversion hitting the news to get to the next

>> really really good graduated from that.

I will only do it now if they've raised over a billion dollars.

>> So, thank you to Zack Dell for your billion dollar announcement and same with Sai Quantum. [laughter]

>> I I love Zach. I spend a much time with him. Yeah. Mhm. It was okay. So, I I'd

him. Yeah. Mhm. It was okay. So, I I'd obviously listened to the founders episode on Michael Dell and then that podcast, too. But in preparation for the

podcast, too. But in preparation for the Zack Dell interview, I, you know, I listened to that and after our first interview, because he raised backto back funding. It was pretty insane. After our

funding. It was pretty insane. After our

first interview, I was like, "Holy crap, that is his that is his father's son, if that's the right term." They're

definitely connected.

>> Zach's going after it.

>> Yeah. you well you >> he's trying to match and exceed his father >> but like you can you can totally tell the principles like the values how wholesome he is all of that kind of

stuff. So why did you choose Michael

stuff. So why did you choose Michael Dell as your second interview?

>> I think Michael Dell's autobiography is like one of the best autobiographies written by a founder ever. He's also

been unbelievably like generous to me.

like he had sent me a DM like years ago, like I don't know, 2023 before almost anybody knew who I was. And he's like, "You I think he said like, "You're you're really good at this. Your podcast

are A++." And I think there was like little trophy emojis. And then um when I went to meet him for the first time in Austin, this is before we recorded together. We spent like 5 hours talking

together. We spent like 5 hours talking and like what is an hour of that guy's time worth? Like it's inconceivable that

time worth? Like it's inconceivable that he would be so generous with me. And

then I I brought the book along with me so he can see like the I mean he listens to podcast you should know but like the effort that I put into what I'm doing.

Like this is not a game to me. Like I'm

trying to be the best in the world at what I'm doing. And for him to like I didn't even see that he signed it and went back to Malibu and like two days later open the book and he's just like David I think you're you're a master at

your craft. And he's like linked in that

your craft. And he's like linked in that line before he's like tweeted. He's just

been unbelievably uh generous to me. In

fact, he might not even know this, but I have this deep multi-year partnership.

And the way that came about, >> who knew that? Wow.

>> Surprise.

>> You're lucky I didn't wear shirt. Um I

have tattoos. Um

>> I don't know what that is, so it's okay.

>> Yeah. The way this came about though, this was very interesting, is one of my very close friends is one of the founders. We were friends way before we

founders. We were friends way before we worked together. and he called me one

worked together. and he called me one day and he's just like, "Dude, I was at Michael Dell's house. He didn't know we were friends and he couldn't stop talking about your podcast." He's like, "I know 10 to 15 billionaires personally

that listen to your podcast. We've got

to find a way to work together." And

this guy has a bunch of stuff going on.

So, we just went through the list because like now I'm talking business podcast. This might be like 17 hours.

podcast. This might be like 17 hours.

But basically for these kind of audiences is like you need a high LTV, high customer acquisition costs and price discrimination. And so like when

price discrimination. And so like when you apply that to this list of companies, it was obvious like was the the perfect fit. And then we you know we did this like deep deep partnership and

it hasn't it could not have gone better than what has happened in the last like year and a half. And you know we have a multi-year like I'm with them for years and years and years. They're the

presenting sponsor of the new podcast.

Uh I was just in their office uh with Rob Moore and Rob asked Eric Glyman the CEO. He's like, "What's your podcast

CEO. He's like, "What's your podcast strategy?" He just pointed at me like,

strategy?" He just pointed at me like, "David, that's our podcast strategy." Um

and so Dell's just been I just can't believe like somebody like that, one of the greatest entrepreneurs ever, you know, running started company 19 and he's 61, still running it to this day,

is unbelievably generous with me. And so

I just DM'd him because I admire him.

He's like one of my heroes. like I don't feel like I admi deeply admire what he did and when I see like the the the scope of what your life can be, I'm like I want that. I want what he did. Like

this is incredible. I don't want to jump out, jump around. I don't want to start, scale, sell. Like I want to do the same

scale, sell. Like I want to do the same thing forever and be really good at it.

Um and then we can talk about some of the lessons I learned from him. And so I just shot him a DM. I was like, "Would you do this?" And he's like, "Yeah."

Immediately he's like, "Let's do it."

And then the crazy thing is we flew with an entire crew cuz to jump start this like these guys are so hard to schedule with masters of the universe kind of people. I was like I will come to you at

people. I was like I will come to you at a >> moment's notice.

>> And so we wind up setting up in his office >> in the conference room right next to his office in I think it's Round Rock right outside of uh Austin. And what I love

about Michael this is important too is the only filter I trust is time. And I

like people that have the same people around them for a long time because again, you can we're in a the game of startups and VC is just so dirty.

There's so many liars and sociopaths and just very dangerous people that I've seen, you know, in the last decade. I do

not like a lot of this behavior. And so

I always look like, does this person have people around them for a very long time? And so I think Dell's head of

time? And so I think Dell's head of comms has been there for like 26 years.

His assistant has been there for 25 years. She her name is Stephanie. She's

years. She her name is Stephanie. She's

so sweet. And I was sitting here talking to her before recording and she goes, "I don't know who you are, but you're obviously very special to Michael." I

go, "What? Why are you saying that?" And

she goes, "He he doesn't like attention.

He does not He could be being on a million podcasts every day if he wanted to. Anybody would want him on their

to. Anybody would want him on their podcast." He goes, "He says no to all of

podcast." He goes, "He says no to all of these requests, and if he does say yes, he he gives them 30 minutes." He goes, "He blocked out two hours for you." And

so again, like he's just I I'm deeply I'm deeply proud that somebody like Michael would find value in my work. And

then I just respect him. And so when I get to talk to him, you know, I get just essentially get to sit at the feet of like a master and just be like you just I just listen. I just shut up and listen the whole time.

>> Well, so what were the key lessons you learned from him?

>> The beauty of like the infinite game.

And so his whole thing like you know at one point he had more money than the market cap of his company and it's just like if you read his autobiography he's like how is one person this good at

every single thing that they do and so I think the most important thing from him is uh well let me give the advice he gave me when before we recorded this is like probably I don't know 60 days before we recorded and I've told you

this too because like you're off to a fantastic start. Most people are not

fantastic start. Most people are not taken out by competition. those people

sabotaged themselves. And so, you know, he was telling me story after story of all these people that, you know, were had they were making 500 million a year in revenue and they were doing all this other things. It's like they just

other things. It's like they just sabotaged themselves. And sometimes

sabotaged themselves. And sometimes it's, you know, drugs. Sometimes it's uh they go they go to uh they go to sleep on a win and wake up with a loss. So,

like, oh, I I can like chill now. I've

made it. It's like, no, you've never made it. Um, and so I think like making

made it. Um, and so I think like making sure you're not doing anything to sabotage yourself is one of the most important lessons. And then if you

important lessons. And then if you really talk to Michael, it's like what motivates him. He is a very generative

motivates him. He is a very generative person. It's not he has he does not have

person. It's not he has he does not have a negative fuel source. He looks at everything like a giant puzzle and it's just like well how do I build a new AI company? How do I reimagine you know

company? How do I reimagine you know this this company has I don't know 60,000 or 100,000 employees. Like how do I do this? How do I make it so that the company can survive this next technological revolution? Uh we talked a

technological revolution? Uh we talked a lot about like what happens when you start making money. like he's been making money since the 1980s, you know.

So then it's like, "Oh, well then then I should probably learn about this investing thing. Like what do I do?" He

investing thing. Like what do I do?" He

starts this crazy merchant bank. He just

I think that's like one of the most important things if you just you can kind of step back. You're going to have crazy problems in your in any business.

And he's just like, "Oh, that that's not a problem. That's a puzzle." And I think

a problem. That's a puzzle." And I think reframing that in your mind is like problems are inevitable. Like just take a step back and like, "Oh, okay. Well,

problems are there to be solved. Like we

can figure out how to solve them. What

do we do next?

>> That reminds me a lot of your conversation. I said conversation, not

conversation. I said conversation, not interview, by the way.

>> Uh with Brad Jacobs, because he is also all about embracing problems, by the way. Amazing. Like what? He put you in

way. Amazing. Like what? He put you in his new book. What was that?

>> Okay, so Brad Jacobs is a funny guy. Uh

probably the most energetic person I've ever been around. He's 68 or 70 years old. So Brad Jacobs has started I think

old. So Brad Jacobs has started I think eight now eight separate billion-dollar companies and he for a long time he was like my LinkedIn reply guy.

>> What? [laughter]

>> Yeah. So I got to tell you the story.

This hilarious story. So the first podcast he ever did I think he was interviewed by Patrick Shaughnessy on Invest Like the Best. Okay. And if you they recorded in Patrick's got a studio

in New York and he's got a studio in Greenwich and obviously >> shout out to Connecticut.

>> Shout out Connecticut. And Brad lives in Greenwich and tries to avoid the city like a plague. So he recorded in the Greenwich studio. If you go upstairs in

Greenwich studio. If you go upstairs in this like house, this office house that Patrick has, >> the entire upstairs attic is like uh like looks like a library and most of those books were covered on founders or

not most, but like half the books were covered on founders. And so he has like references to founders everywhere. And

Patrick calls me after that happened and he goes, "Dude, I just with Brad Jacobs, you know who this is?" I was like, "Yeah, he sent me like his his new book yet. This is years ago. So, this is in

yet. This is years ago. So, this is in the book you're talking about, which we'll get to in a second. And he goes, "You know the founders guy? I love

founders." And so, he starts sending me messages that he's like, "I'm addicted to your uh your your book, I think he calls him book reviews." I was like, "That is kind of funny. I kind of do a book report for a living." Like, what

you do is like in elementary school, I do that for for a living. And um so we start talking and he invites me to go to

breakfast's house. And I had this email

breakfast's house. And I had this email newsletter that I send inconsistently, but I should where essentially what I do is take the top 10 sentences or paragraphs of every book that I read and

just send send that out, right, as like a, you know, here's these 10 ideas and then if you want to listen to the episode, here's the episode. I get to Brad Jacob's house and it was my personal website at the time that now

has been updated. He printed out my entire books. He printed out my entire

entire books. He printed out my entire public website. And I get to his house.

public website. And I get to his house.

First of all, he's one of the craziest houses you could ever been to, as you can imagine. We're going to have

can imagine. We're going to have breakfast. It's me, Patrick, Brad's com

breakfast. It's me, Patrick, Brad's com guy, and Brad. And the table is like 40 ft long. And I was like, "What is going

ft long. And I was like, "What is going on? Who is who else is coming to this

on? Who is who else is coming to this breakfast?" And next to Brad as he's

breakfast?" And next to Brad as he's like sipping his coffee is my website.

It's like this. It's like 12 inches thick thick. And he's just going through

thick thick. And he's just going through and reading them. And I had met a couple people work for Brad and they told me that they he makes them do that at the office. He like prints them out and they

office. He like prints them out and they have to like go through and read all of these. So I do this episode on Brad's

these. So I do this episode on Brad's first book which is how to make a few billion dollars. That episode goes

billion dollars. That episode goes viral. Like it probably has a million

viral. Like it probably has a million people listen to it. And if you're in PE, everybody knew who Brad Jacobs was, but my audience is like entrepreneurs and business owners and investors of all

over. So then he becomes like I ran into

over. So then he becomes like I ran into him on a birthday party at my friend Rick's birthday party in Miami a few months later. And he walks up to me, he

months later. And he walks up to me, he goes, "I love you." And I go, "Why?" He

goes, "You made me famous." I go, "I definitely did not. Like your book, first of all, great title. Second of

all, you're you're a wild man. Like

you're this crazy character. Like you're

that you're you're so differentiated.

You can't help but notice him. Even if

you don't like him, you just like you're going to not like you're going to pay attention to that guy." And so then when I had breakfast with you, he's like, "Yeah, everybody says I should write another book, but I don't I only had one book in me." And I see him a few months

later. He's like, "I wrote another

later. He's like, "I wrote another book." So I was like, "All right, send

book." So I was like, "All right, send me an early copy. Like, I I want to read this." So he sends it to me, but he

this." So he sends it to me, but he doesn't tell me what he puts in it. And

this is We had already recorded an episode of the new show. So I saw him a bunch of times. I just saw I was at his event at the Four Seasons of Miami Beach like a few weeks ago. Like I see him

kind of frequently. Um, and I'm going through the book to make an episode of Founders on It. And I'm just like reading. He's talking about sources of

reading. He's talking about sources of capital, right? Because the first two

capital, right? Because the first two chapters is all about what you just said. It's like he was he had a very

said. It's like he was he had a very unhealthy mind and he found the tools necessary to transform an unhealthy mind into a healthy mind cuz he's like if you have an unhealthy mind it's going you're not going to reach your potential and

you can't build a great company if you're so messed up in the head and you're stressed and you you can't handle what's going on. So he's like well I need tools so I can have I can operate from a place of like abundance and love

and he's like really into like meditation everything else. Mhm.

>> And so I'm reading then the rest of the book is how to do roll-ups, how to do acquisitions, and he's done 500 different acquisitions his lifetime.

He's raised, I don't know, 50 billion of capital. Like I mean, his resume is

capital. Like I mean, his resume is freaking incredible.

And he gets the sources of capital and then he talks about the fact that I like being a public company. Um I think these companies are staying private too long.

There's all these other benefits of being a public company. And then we get to the point where he's just like um his new co company started as a public

company and he's like two I'm reading the book not knowing this is about to happen and he goes uh and then I found a different source of capital which was

two of the top 20 shareholders in the new company came because David Sra profiled me on his founders podcast and I'm like what?

>> Oh my gosh. So, he had told me that in private, but the best John, our mutual friend John Kugan, said that was the best podcast endorsement of all time.

Um, so when I went to record with him in his house in Greenwich, I we we travel with like a five camera setup. There's

like we have an army that comes with us.

And these are just like these aren't business guys. These are just like

business guys. These are just like camera guys and like podcast guys. And

he goes uh he goes, "I love David. I

raised $750 million out of his audience and I didn't even have to pay him a fee.

And he laughed. He like slapped his knee and laughed and I don't know anything about investment banking. So I call a friend of mine. He's like, "Oh yeah, that that that saved him quite a bit of money."

money." >> Um and so that's what he's talking about. He's like one of my two people

about. He's like one of my two people didn't know who he was. They heard my episode on his first book. One put in 400 million, >> one put in 350 million and then joined his board and they told Brad how they

learned about him. And so then he put in the book.

>> Damn. Yeah.

>> You're going to have to ask for a fee next time.

>> No, I would never. No, cuz I just want to be friends. I don't I don't need anything.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, I have like two tracks in my mind right now that I'm like spinning off of of this one. The fact that he's like so obsessed with founders and that is like a common theme that I hear through these

conversations that you're having on the new show. One of them was with Michael

new show. One of them was with Michael Oitz and like I think the first time you met you were on the phone or you were with Patrick or someone like that and like >> do you want me to tell your story?

>> Yeah, tell me the story.

>> So, uh there's actually an interesting Oitz has got has given me really good advice too that I think is really important. We'll come back to it but

important. We'll come back to it but like you need people in your life that tell you the truth because if you think about oitz I mean when he was he was he was in contact with like 200 people a day when

he was when he was building CIA. He's

probably talked to thousands of people over his lifetime. Spent a bunch of time with maybe I don't know 500 800 probably even more than that on like the dinner level or like a few hour level.

And you know he's basically got three friends. And one of them is one of my

friends. And one of them is one of my closest friends, this guy named Rick Gerson. And I asked OIT, I guess I'll

Gerson. And I asked OIT, I guess I'll tell you that story first before I go to how I how I met him. And I was like, you know, I always want to know why people

choose who like obits is a legend.

>> Mhm.

>> When you know, an absolute legend. Like,

how do you choose who you going to let into your life? Who you going to give access to? Who you going to see over and

access to? Who you going to see over and over again? It's not just like, oh yeah,

over again? It's not just like, oh yeah, we had lunch one time. It's like, no, you you've built a friendship with this guy over two decades. Like, what is it about? And so, I was asking about this

about? And so, I was asking about this and, you know, obviously some level of intelligence. He's like, well, Rick's

intelligence. He's like, well, Rick's really smart. He's really serious, but

really smart. He's really serious, but he's like he's one of the few people in my life that will tell me the truth. And

what Oz was saying is like it could some people are so hyper sensitive to criticism that if you tell him something negative, right, they might push you out of their life. They might discount it

where he's like, I know he'll tell me the truth and he wants the best for me.

He's not saying it to like hurt my feelings, to insult me like that. We're

way past that. And he thinks it's really important. So, um, me and Rick go to

important. So, um, me and Rick go to this same spot. Uh, and we have breakfast all the time together and his phone was on the table and we're just sitting there talking about the stuff we talk about, which is, you know,

entrepreneurship investing reading books, like the same stuff that history.

We're two giant nerds and we just read all the time. So, these are the basis of our conversations. And I had known who

our conversations. And I had known who Oz was. I I did an episode on he's like

Oz was. I I did an episode on he's like episode like 55 or something like you're talking about eight years ago. read. I

think Michael Oitz's uh who is Michael Oit's autobiography is one of the most important entrepreneur autobiographies ever read because or ever written because he puts in all the bad stuff,

all the regrets, all [snorts] the mistakes he made, all the the the way he destroyed relationships just is very valuable. You essentially read that book

valuable. You essentially read that book and you have a guy that has four decades of experience. It's very wise saying,

of experience. It's very wise saying, "Hey, I did this. This idea worked out really good. I did that. Don't do that.

really good. I did that. Don't do that.

that caused a lot of pain and I kind of sabotaged myself there. So, his phone's on the table, it rings and it says Michaelit. So, I'm like, oh [ __ ] I was

Michaelit. So, I'm like, oh [ __ ] I was like, I know who that guy is. And I

don't even know if I knew they were friends at that point. And he picks it up on speaker phone and Rick's like, hey, I'm actually sitting here with a good friend of mine. You might know who he is. His name is David Center. He does

he is. His name is David Center. He does

this podcast called Founders. Pause. I

listened to four of them yesterday.

>> [laughter] >> That's the first time I ever heard Oitz's voice and like I listened to four of them yesterday. He was in like St.

Barts and he really meant it because a lot of people me and you have gone through this before we talked about the past. You meet people's like I love your

past. You meet people's like I love your podcast. I'm like yeah I'm sure you do.

podcast. I'm like yeah I'm sure you do.

And some >> I just saw a clip.

>> Yeah. Some of them definitely don't listen. Some of them do but like

listen. Some of them do but like everybody wants to fly to you. So it's

like okay well thank you. No he starts like rattling off like stories from the episodes. He was talking about Cornelius

episodes. He was talking about Cornelius Vanderbilt and all this other stuff. And

um and so then we just became friends.

Uh we've had like he's again somebody that has taken an interest in me because he gets value out of my work and just gives me guidance even if I don't listen

to what he says. in many cases like sometimes the one time he got upset where like he's like I invite you to dinner because I have he didn't say basically like had a plan for my life

and I'm like oh okay like do I have any input here [laughter] and he lays it out now to his credit this is right before I I didn't I was already working on the new show but I didn't announce it and to his credit he

had correctly identified the weaknesses in my previous business model how to take it to the next level he had repped Charlie Rose which he didn't even know was my basis for what I'm doing. Like I

was going to do this generation's Charlie Rose.

>> He lays it out for 20 minutes, exactly what I should do, which almost verbatim with the plan I came up with. And I was like, Michael, that's pretty impressive.

I'm already doing this. And I explain it to him and he goes, "Oh, so I didn't you didn't need this dinner." I was like, "Dude, stop. Like, I just want to hang

"Dude, stop. Like, I just want to hang out." Um, and then the thing about him

out." Um, and then the thing about him is I just want to keep him as a friend cuz he he's like offered to like help me and rep. I'm like, "Michael, you're a

and rep. I'm like, "Michael, you're a shark. you forgot I read your book. I

shark. you forgot I read your book. I

know who you are. And the reason he's taken an interest in me is because he's like, I know all the other podcasters.

He goes, there's nobody like you and me and you are the same.

>> And that is like that's really nice. And

that's exactly why we will not be working together. [laughter]

working together. [laughter] >> What do you think is the biggest mistake of most podcasters?

>> They don't actually love it. So the the reason goes back to like I go around and collecting like all the information on on podcasters is like

one this is a market an industry full of second rate talent. It started out as excessively low status and you've me and you've had a bunch of conversations on

podcasting and I think especially >> I know I'm nervous to talk to you because I feel like you're going to tell everyone.

>> What do you mean?

>> I you you go around collecting information. I'm I'm coming from the VC

information. I'm I'm coming from the VC world. Everyone is like really

world. Everyone is like really transactional.

>> Yeah. But this is another Okay, so there's a couple mistakes people make here. Uh there's some podcasters that

here. Uh there's some podcasters that view podcasting as like zero sum or like fix some or whatever the term is. It's

the most positive some thing in the world.

>> Totally.

>> We're not I'm more competitive than any other podcaster on the planet and I don't treat any other podcasters as competition. It's like you're you're

competition. It's like you're you're you're not thinking about this clearly and and when you do that other podcasters know and then they stop talking to you because you're a weirdo.

Yeah.

>> And so the the analogy I have there is like it's much more I would prefer us to all be like filmmakers.

>> And so like if >> I've done a bunch of um episodes on on filmmakers like George Lucas, Steven Spielberg, Quentyn Tarantino, Christopher Nolan, Jim Cameron. What is

so fascinating is so many of them be got their start together. They spent a lot of time together. They were sharing ideas together. So, like I think the day

ideas together. So, like I think the day that um Star Wars came out, George Lucas was like driving around with Steven Spielberg and I think it was the same thing like the day Jaws came out, they were together and they would they would

preview each other's movies and essentially they just shared information because if you go watch Jaws one day and that doesn't affect George Lucas because you can go watch Star Wars the next day.

If you listen to one of Molly O'Shea's podcasts today and then later on you listen to mine, like you're not taking anything from me.

>> So, what are you guys doing?

>> And I just think it's a lot smarter. I I

just went um I was off the grid for like two days with like six of the biggest podcasters in the world and nobody was weird. Like we were talking about

weird. Like we were talking about revenue ads, how much you're spending for equipment, how you're thinking about this, what your frequency is and like at the end of those conversations, everybody gets better. It doesn't make a

difference. So one one of the thing the

difference. So one one of the thing the earned secret that I had was I went into this because I loved it and pe that a lot of really talented people didn't because they saw it as low status. I

don't even think about the outside world. So, I didn't even like I know I'm

world. So, I didn't even like I know I'm not autistic, but [laughter] I >> wasn't saying you were >> I saw your face, but like I just was so obsessed with what I'm doing and loved it that I didn't I just thought, okay,

if I love this thing, I can transfer my love and passion and uh passion for this to like everybody else.

>> And the secret that I think you've discovered as I like share more information with you is just like, oh, it's like the reverse. It's like the highest status thing you could do because I get access to people that the

startup founder raised $100 million couldn't they wouldn't even talk to them.

>> Yeah.

>> Like I get access to the craziest people in the world because they benefit from my work and it's not like a transactional relationship. Like they

transactional relationship. Like they invite you to their house, you go on vacation, you have intense conversations with them. You literally become friends

with them. You literally become friends with them because you have the same interests and they they like you you make yourself easy to understand. So I

think one is a most talented people don't go into it because from the outside it looks low status. I I would like to encourage that uh mis like that mistaken uh belief as much as I can. Two

uh the people that do do it, they're second rate talent, second rate work ethic. And three, they all quit. And so

ethic. And three, they all quit. And so

I think when I think about you, you're one of I don't know, you're easily in the top 10 of like the hardest working podcasters that I know.

like and you're in it. I think you just said uh you tweeted like you're four months into this full-time.

>> Full time. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> It's obvious what you should be doing.

It's like just keep doing what you're doing and don't sabotage yourself and don't stop. And part of that is goes

don't stop. And part of that is goes back to the Brad Jacobs things when we were finished. It's like keeping you

were finished. It's like keeping you going to as you keep getting I was just on the phone with Andrew Hubman about this this morning cuz I'm going through this huge inflection point and like >> people run into me and know me now not

even from founders. They don't even know what founders is. It's from the new show. And having somebody like Andrew in

show. And having somebody like Andrew in my corner, I can say, "Hey, I've just I've been through what you're going to go through. Like here's the pitfalls you

go through. Like here's the pitfalls you have to avoid and here's like what to expect and like just be careful with this." So your biggest thing is like

this." So your biggest thing is like managing as a way higher profile and your stuff is can be real spiky. That

carp thing took over the entire [laughter] internet. Um, and so your

[laughter] internet. Um, and so your thing is >> until Bill Aman tweeted, "Can I meet you?" or

"May I meet you?"

>> There you go. that ruined my spike.

>> But your your thing is like really obvious is I I do think you realize how great a job this is. Um and your biggest thing is just like what I always tell you. You're just laying bricks. Like

you. You're just laying bricks. Like

don't try to think what's going to happen next year. It doesn't matter.

It's like what's what can I do today?

And we make another podcast. Cool. I'm

going to lay another brick. Then I'll

record another view. Lay another brick.

I'll get better at, you know, my lighting, my cameras, the way I promote uh my podcast and do everything else.

And that's all you have to do. You just

don't interrupt the compounding. like

your path is so clear. Me and Patrick were just talking about this on on the way over here cuz he was asking what I was doing. I was like, I'm going to do

was doing. I was like, I'm going to do Molly's show. And

Molly's show. And >> did he ask if you were going to walk around? [laughter]

around? [laughter] >> No, but he he did think that was like again you you did something that was differentiated and I did tell him I was like now I think everybody's calling her like give me the carp.

>> Yeah. Can can I have this carp special, please? I'd like a walking tour.

please? I'd like a walking tour.

>> But remember you sent me an early um copy of the carp episode.

>> Yeah. And I watched it and I was like, "That's your best episode. This thing's

gonna rip." Do you remember this conversation?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. It was obvious. I was like, "Oh, this is like very interesting. It's

gonna help with retention." Like, it was fascinating.

>> Yeah. Between that and the clips and then the viral things off of that, Elelliana over there, who's amazing, the Palunteer team is just amazing. They

think we probably easily reached 50 million impressions from that two week period. So, it's probably more now, but

period. So, it's probably more now, but it's just in crazy. And by the way, a good differentiation between all of this is like and everything that you're saying about creation is more on the artistry of it. I'm not trying to create

things to go viral. That's a cool like after effect of just a natural authentic personality. I have a weird personality

personality. I have a weird personality and sometimes I'm like super sarcastic and then I pretend I don't know that Jack Alman is related to Sam Alman and it goes viral. This is um you did that

like birthday tweet where you were talking about like you you've been working like so hard at building sorcery that you you barely like paid attention to your birthday. Do

you remember this?

>> Forgot. Yeah. Mhm.

>> And then I remember reading it and obviously like we were having conversations about your podcast. Um,

and I I think like you correctly identified like the most important part which is conver some of the I think it based some of the conversations we had just like P goes back to your previous question. One of the mistakes a podcast

question. One of the mistakes a podcast makes like they don't think about differentiation. You're a founder. Your

differentiation. You're a founder. Your

pro podcast just happens to be a podcast or excuse me your product just happens to be a podcast. I don't understand why f why more podcasters don't think like founders. And so if you just say hey I'm

founders. And so if you just say hey I'm an entrepreneur. I'm building this

an entrepreneur. I'm building this business. I love it. This is my product.

business. I love it. This is my product.

What would any what what standard of advice would anybody give you? It's like

you need some form of differentiation.

So what is the differentiation of for a podcaster? Being who you actually are.

podcaster? Being who you actually are.

You are like a goofy funny like awkward person. I don't you know I'm saying this

person. I don't you know I'm saying this in like a nice way >> and I I told you that and it's in that tweet where it's just like show more of yourself. Yeah.

yourself. Yeah.

>> Like you like you going to you're going to be a public figure.

>> You have to have the confidence to be like okay this is who I am. This is

actually I was having private conversations with a bunch of other like high-profile founders recently around this like there's some founders that do

excellent job in having like cultlike followings which I think the best podcasts are definitely I founders has a cultike following

>> and part of that is you have to show your authentic self. So like Elon tons of people hate him but tons of people love him because of his authentic self.

Karp. Tons of people hate him. Tons of

people love him, but he's who he is all the time. He says crazy, you know,

the time. He says crazy, you know, stuff. Uh Dana White does really good

stuff. Uh Dana White does really good job at this. And I think podcasters should be the same way. It's like, man, I'm not for everybody. This isn't you're not there's no value in building like a very vanilla audience. They have to be

there for you. And so I think the one form of differentiation for podcast is just like be who you are. And you can therefore it makes your job easier because you can be who you are forever.

But if you're playing some kind of role like or you have some kind of mask then you that you're going to slip up one day. You like and then people like oh

day. You like and then people like oh she wasn't who I thought she was.

>> And then some of I mean I don't want to comment too much on other podcasts but some of them have just like negative bends to themselves because they see other things and they're like I don't want to do that and here's what I'm doing because I'm going to get into

dangerous territory if I go further on that. I I would I would ignore I I I pay

that. I I would I would ignore I I I pay like I would ignore I I think it it's like weekend has a line where it's like the competition don't even listen.

>> Yeah.

>> Like same thing. I

>> competition is for losers. Peter Teal.

>> I know. But like I I [laughter] think Yeah. There are some podcasters that are

Yeah. There are some podcasters that are just like paying attention to every little thing everybody else does. Like I

want to know how you're building your business, how you look at it, like your the the the philosophy behind what you're doing. Just like a founder. Like

you're doing. Just like a founder. Like

I want to know like why you're doing what you're doing and how you're doing it. I think it's very fascinating, but I

it. I think it's very fascinating, but I don't care what other podcasts are doing. I'm just going to do it the exact

doing. I'm just going to do it the exact same way that I want to do it.

>> Okay. Speaking of business, you mentioned you want to build a show like Charlie Rose.

>> What does that mean?

>> So, I always think about this goes back to differentiation. So, let's back up. I

to differentiation. So, let's back up. I

think episode number six of the new show was James Dyson. That was one of the best days of my entire life because James Dyson, his first out of all all the 400 plus biographies of

entrepreneurs I read, his first autobiography called Against the Odds is by far my number one recommendation.

Everybody's like, "Give me like a top 10 list." I was like, "No, I don't have a

list." I was like, "No, I don't have a top 10. Listen to all of them over and

top 10. Listen to all of them over and over again. But if you want one, go find

over again. But if you want one, go find this hard to find book and read it over and over again." I've read it, I don't know, at least five times. I read his second autobiography at least twice. I

read his history of great inventions, this encyclopedia that he wrote. I've

lost watched all his interviews.

>> He gave me the motivation to not quit when I was going through a very difficult time. Five and a half years of

difficult time. Five and a half years of struggle before I built the podcast into something that was like sustainable and then it grew from there.

>> He did 14 years of struggle and the whole time I was like this guy did five 14 years of struggle, 5,127 prototypes.

He is failing the his entire life and he didn't give up. I can like persevere through this. And so it was very

through this. And so it was very important. and he was the number one

important. and he was the number one person in the world that I wanted to meet. And he couldn't have been better.

meet. And he couldn't have been better.

So sweet and witty and impressive. He

owns one of the he was 100 He's 70 years old. He owns one of the hundred He owns

old. He owns one of the hundred He owns 100% of one of the most valuable companies in the world. And he doesn't give he doesn't care about money. He's

first of all, he's like made way more money he'll ever spend in lifetimes. He

just cares about building the best products possible. And so his mantra is

products possible. And so his mantra is differentiation and retention of total control. And that's exactly what I try

control. And that's exactly what I try to do with founders is like, I own all of it. I turn down crazy acquisition

of it. I turn down crazy acquisition offers, crazy investment offers. It's

like, nope, it's differentiated and I'm retain control. And so

retain control. And so when I think of podcast, if I'm going to start a new podcast, I want to like look at the podcast landscape and I want to see what where's the white space. I

don't I'm not going to do anything else that somebody else is doing. And this is like we have mutual friends in in John and Jordy, TPBN, and they will tell you, David, >> what is it called? It's TB

>> T I always say it wrong. TBPN.

They say I say TPBN.

>> TBB.

>> Yeah, whatever. Tech, whatever. I don't

even know what the acronym is for. John

and Jordy show. So, I had been I thought John Kugan was a generational media talent. And I've

talent. And I've >> Yeah, he's exceptional.

>> And I've told him this for years. We've

been working trying like I've been trying to help him, not that he needs my help, trying to find the right format because when I found him when he was doing documentaries, I was like, "Dude, your documentaries are incredible.

you're he did this video called the history of Silicon Valley and I had read at least by this time 40 books on that topic and I learned stuff in that video I didn't know. So that was like oh this

guy's serious cuz I go through every kind of creator I hate that word but every kind of podcast or documentary like I didn't know it's they're so bad that the good ones just you can't help

but notice them and so I was like dude you should move to podcasting because documentaries take too long the business model sucks. you have no idea the kind

model sucks. you have no idea the kind of business that you can build over here. And you know, he he not many

here. And you know, he he not many people know this. He did this podcast. I

won't even say the name because I don't want people looking it up because I don't [snorts] think he's proud of it.

It was like almost like a modern version of founders solo show deep dives on an individual. Flu flew with him to

individual. Flu flew with him to Greenwich trying to convince Patrick to sign him. Patrick said no.

sign him. Patrick said no.

>> I was like, "You're crazy. We got to sign this guy." And then um and then he just went through a couple different variations and he one time he asked me to do a show with him and it was going

to be a show covering like tech news. I

was like I don't even I don't care about tech news at all. I don't pay attention to what's going on in the world. I read

history and I make podcasts. Like I'm

the wrong person for this. And so the white space there was like I was and he knew this too. I was like somebody should build a Pat McAfee of business.

you can take an idea that's working somewhere else and just apply it to a different niche. And I was like, it's,

different niche. And I was like, it's, you know, you live stream it. Um, you

have a co-host, you can do call-ins.

Essentially, if you look at what TPBN evolved into, it looks a lot like the Pat McAfee business. And no one knew how lucrative these shows could get. Uh, Pat

McAfei's presenting sponsor for one year, uh, they paid 30 million. So, a

single company for a single ad slot for a single year to a single podcaster paid $30 million. So, it's like, okay, well,

$30 million. So, it's like, okay, well, that's just one. How much money do you think that show makes? He's like, he's got 15 hours of content that he's making every week. You can have the thing is

every week. You can have the thing is going to print cash.

>> And so that was differentiated. And so

it comes out and obviously did what it did. You have somebody super talented,

did. You have somebody super talented, super differentiated, someone that takes it very very seriously. Doesn't do

anything else. And I'm not, you know, I am surprised how big it got, but I'm not surprised that they were successful. And

so I was like, well, what what what else is missing? And forever like Charlie

is missing? And forever like Charlie Rose, younger people know who he is, but everybody like he was the place where the elite people in the world went to

have intelligent conversations and their conversations usually were an hour long, 5 days a week. And so my idea was just like where are all the elite people in the world capable of having intelligent

conversation multiple times a week? That

is what I'm going to right now. doing

twice a month, then we're working up to one a week, and then I want to do multiple times a week. And I was like, all I have to do is like, this isn't rocket science, David. Just build this generation's Charlie Rose. Now, the

difference is he was much more of an interviewer where I have, I think, a very unique data set in my head that can allow me to produce something to completely differentiate it. So, it's

like, >> and I interview is not interesting to me. Like I just told you, it's like, but

me. Like I just told you, it's like, but having conversations with these elite people and learning from them is very like I don't do drugs, but the way I

feel after I have these conversations, it's like I'm the I'm high on life. I

can't sleep after these conversations because these people fill me with such energy. Um, and I'm just learning so

energy. Um, and I'm just learning so much in such a short amount of time. And

so, yeah, the idea was like, okay, well, who else could make Charlie Rose? It's

not there. We agree it's not there, right? Okay. So, it's not there. So, who

right? Okay. So, it's not there. So, who

else could make it? And like it probably had to be an existing podcaster. And so,

you go through like who's a business podcaster. You just there's not that

podcaster. You just there's not that many that actually people pay attention to. It's like, oh, no one by the time

to. It's like, oh, no one by the time I'll be so far ahead by the time no one will be able to catch me.

>> So, what's the business model behind that?

>> I mean, media you need frequency. And

so, like there Founders is a crazy business. People understood like the the

business. People understood like the the business behind it. But I I'm always going to be constrained because to make an episode of Founders, I have to read an entire book. It's 52. 52 books a year

is still a lot. Maybe I can make 70, but I can't do 250. I can't do 200. Where

conversations I could have a different conversation every night and people are going to find it interesting. Even if we record, and I think we're going to get better on the editing, but let's say record for two and a half hours with almost anybody on the planet that's an

interesting entrepreneur. There's going

interesting entrepreneur. There's going to be an hour interest an hour of interesting stuff in there for sure. So

it's just a frequency and then what we're understanding and this is where I think we have this advantage as business podcasters which is the the business that you've built around your show is

when you have a high value audience right you're not going on number on screen go up that's that's how no other podcasters do it where if you're selling

on a CPM basis it makes a difference >> so I will make more proportionally more money if I have two million people than if I have 1.5 million in business podcasting. It's who does that number

podcasting. It's who does that number represent? Michael Dell listening to

represent? Michael Dell listening to your podcast is worth a mil 10 million normal Americans. Like so most of the

normal Americans. Like so most of the companies that come to us is like do you want these kind of people to know that you exist? And then what happens is it

you exist? And then what happens is it helps with recruiting. It helps with customers. It helps Brad Jacobs pulled

customers. It helps Brad Jacobs pulled $750 million out of my audience. Helps

with enterprise value because your audience is full of people that want to do deals. They want to find new great

do deals. They want to find new great products to buy. They want to they want to uh discover new talented founders that they didn't understand. They're

looking for investment opportunities.

There's all kinds of interesting unintended positive externalities that happen just getting in front of these people. And so like when when I have

people. And so like when when I have these and I do like multi-year partnerships with most of my partners, it's just like it's never like, oh, I'm going to guarantee you X impressions.

It's like when these people know that you exist, good stuff's going to happen.

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turing.com y. It's amazing how many people have

y. It's amazing how many people have done deals off of the episodes I've done too. Like it's just you would not expect

too. Like it's just you would not expect it. These

it. These >> I would expect and listening might not expect it.

>> No, you the per the people the audience wouldn't. We have some incredibly

wouldn't. We have some incredibly powerful people. It's just amazing. Is

powerful people. It's just amazing. Is

it true one of your guests tickled you?

[laughter] >> No comment.

>> No comment.

And so damn, he found he found the button.

[laughter] [gasps] We have a secret founders button. No comment. Okay, so you do

button. No comment. Okay, so you do something people rarely do nowadays. You

read physical books. How long does it take you to read those books? And is it true you use a sword to highlight them?

I'm sorry, a ruler.

>> Yes, it is true that I use a ruler.

There's a great line where I think it was one of Steve Jobs biography where it's like a great product is better than it has to be. And I think about that line all the time. And what that means is like

sometimes the customer that you're going to put so much effort into things they may not even notice, but they can feel it. It's like a you evoke emotion. And

it. It's like a you evoke emotion. And

and um Steve Jobs was famous of this because like he would insist that the the inside of a computer, which you couldn't even open up, had to be beautiful. And they're like, "Steve, no

beautiful. And they're like, "Steve, no one's going to see this." He's like, "Yeah, but I'm going to see it." and

Walt Disney was like this. And you'll

see a lot of the same reoccurring patterns uh throughout history. They're

just so obsessed with the quality of the product that they're making that they just can't help themselves because it's offensive to them that it goes out any other way. And so it would be a lot more

other way. And so it would be a lot more efficient. I'm kind of anti-efficiency

efficient. I'm kind of anti-efficiency when it comes to my work because I do think there is almost like a this this sounds willy fufu, but like there is a spiritual connection I have to what I'm

doing. I deeply love it. It reminds me

doing. I deeply love it. It reminds me much more of like being like a so this is Founders now. When I'm recording with other people, it's different. I feel

like like a like a solo songwriter. Like

just because I'm making it Founders is made by one person. Like I pick the books, I read the books, I record, I edit, I hand edit the transcripts. This

is like ridiculous. This everybody tells me you should not be spending time doing this. And I feel like I'm better. the

this. And I feel like I'm better. the

product is better because I I pay attention to all these like little details and spend a lot of time um I spend a lot of time doing them and so it would be much more efficient if I just

read the Kindle because then all my notes and highlights are there. I'm not

doing arts and crafts over here. So like

I sit down with a book. This what it looks like. It's like I'm doing arts and

looks like. It's like I'm doing arts and crafts project. I sit down with a

crafts project. I sit down with a physical book, pen, ruler, not a sword, uh post-it notes and scissors and that is how I make them. They I should have brought one today. I didn't even think

to do this. Um, and it takes a long time and then I had to transfer them. So,

this goes back to a great product is better than it has to be. So, then I lucked out in doing something all the way back in 2018 that now is paying unbelievable dividends today is I decided to put every single one of my

notes and highlights into this giant searchable database called Readwise.

>> And so now I have every I mean there's I think 30,000 highlights and notes in this database that I can search. So,

I'll be reading something today and I'm like, "Oh, this sounds like something Walt Disney did. Let me go search and find it." And then I partnered with Read

find it." And then I partnered with Read Wise and they built this other tool just for me. Other people can access to it

for me. Other people can access to it now, but it started out just for me where all my notes, highlights, and transcripts for every single episode.

And I have a AI assistant that's just trained on just that. And so, I'm clearing this all the time as I'm making new episodes. So, to compete goes with

new episodes. So, to compete goes with like competitions for losers. Say I'm

going to do exactly what David does on Founders. Okay. Okay. Well, I'm 407

Founders. Okay. Okay. Well, I'm 407 books ahead. I'm going to keep doing

books ahead. I'm going to keep doing this every day. So, that means like if you you're never going to catch me. But

even that, then you have to like I'm doing all like I'm creating all these tools and all this technology and all these different ways to do it. It's like

if you don't have access to that either, it's just going to be very it's nearly impossible to to to be able to at least duplicate what I'm doing. Um, so they I read like 25

pages an hour. Like I'm not a speedreader. Um, and I'm reading with

speedreader. Um, and I'm reading with the intention to understand it so well that I can turn around and teach it somebody else. And the teaching actually

somebody else. And the teaching actually makes me learn better because there's so many times where I'm talk like speaking out loud about something I thought I knew.

>> And I'm like, what you just said doesn't make any sense. You don't even understand what you're talking about.

So, you got to stop, pause, go back.

>> And then, like, even like this morning, I was like rereading past highlights.

So, like that's my form of practice.

like an NBA player will, you know, Steph Curry is putting up 500 threes a day in practice. I'm rereading past highlights

practice. I'm rereading past highlights to remind myself. I'll listen to past episodes all the time. Uh she like could you we forget that we forget. I'm like I I read the book. I made the episode. I

listened to the episode before it came out. It's been two years. I forgot half

out. It's been two years. I forgot half more than half the stuff in there. And

so it goes back to like what is your organizing principle? It's like well I

organizing principle? It's like well I want to be the best in the world at what I do. I think there's a great line. Did

I do. I think there's a great line. Did

you ever read the Oman?

>> Yeah.

>> Robert. Okay. So, there's a great line in that book where he says, "In the age of infinite leverage, being at the extreme of your art is really important." And I changed that to being

important." And I changed that to being at the extreme of your craft because power laws all the way down. And if you if if all the people in the world say, "Hey, I'm going to learn from history's

greatest entrepreneurs. I want to be the

greatest entrepreneurs. I want to be the default choice." And if you are I think

default choice." And if you are I think I am the default choice, but if you are the default choice, you get 99. You get

Why are you laughing?

>> I'm not laughing.

>> Okay. you get [laughter] you get all the rewards. It's not So, there's a great

rewards. It's not So, there's a great example of this where um there's a skater named Tony Hawk who's by far the most famous >> he's by far the most famous skate skateboarder. I was listening to him on

skateboarder. I was listening to him on a podcast one time and you know he got paid to perform. He had his uh he had his own skateboard company. He had all these deals that he was endorsed by and

he said like something like 90% of his wealth came from the video game Tony Hawk Pro Skater or whatever it's called.

>> Yeah.

>> And you know it's hundreds of millions of dollars flowed to him as a result of that. And it made me think I was like oh

that. And it made me think I was like oh how much did the second like most famous or second most well-known skateboarder make in his video game? And the answer to that question is who the hell is the

second most famous skateboarder? Now,

I'm sure in the world of skateboarding, you might know, but the general population, the answer is I don't know.

That's it's very important to be at the extreme of your craft. So, I'm looking for any of these like little edges that I can keep doing in compound over a long period of time.

>> A couple things. One, I learned from Charlotte that that learning um that learning style of like reading something and reciting with someone else is like

is like is key to absorption and understanding. And I think she was she

understanding. And I think she was she she's in high school, so she is like reading McBth and like the these different history books. And I was just in Poland and I was visiting her and I was like, "Well, I would love to like I

love I'm a I'm a nerd. Like I would be happy to [laughter] like assist you in in learning these subjects. That would

be really fun." Um and two, in your Dyson interview, this was a hilarious mo you there are some funny moments in some of these things. one is in the Brad Jacobs one where you're like you're like

explaining him and then you're like actually you know what I'm gonna stop you can explain and then then in this um in this uh Dyson one you're like you you're like going through the interview

and then at the end of the interview you're like you know I can't help but notice this but like your your hands are huge I said thick hands [laughter] >> I forgot about that

>> and it goes to the physicality of like like making things and why you take so much time and practice and the physicality of printing out um like even your transcripts for founders and like reading them and like fixing them and

all that kind of thing and then with the books and like reading and underlining and using swords and like all this weird stuff that you do but like yeah it's it's it's pretty interesting.

>> Thank you.

>> You're welcome. I don't know [laughter] if that's a compliment.

>> Was that a question? Thank you. You said

it's interesting. Good. I'm trying to make interesting things that people want to listen to and hopefully learn from.

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disclosures in the description. You've

picked a particular niche to go after to interview. So, you're going after, you

interview. So, you're going after, you know, like there's only like 2,000 to 3,000 billionaires out there, like really, really successful people um

who've made it to that mark. One of the challenges with podcasts is scheduling.

And so, you're niching down even further because you like old people. And so like how do you plan on like scheduling all these? I'm sure you have a list of

these? I'm sure you have a list of people that are in queue. So how do you manage all of that and and who's up next?

>> So I have like I said I think the best >> especially if you want to like increase the cadence.

>> Yeah. Well, okay. So I think I have the best team in podcasting and so like Rob Moore is the one and the team are the ones taking care of all this. So like,

hey, how do we get this person? assuming

I can't like access them myself and actually like you were helpful in this domain because I I don't even think about again I'm just like focused on the work. I don't think about the the

work. I don't think about the the external words world's interpretation and you had like said this some like off-hand comment one time you're like yeah like he obviously knows who you are. I'm like, why would he know who I

are. I'm like, why would he know who I am? Because I don't think of like what

am? Because I don't think of like what I'm doing. And I I forget that like

I'm doing. And I I forget that like millions and millions of people listen to founders every year. And now the new show is like we're going to add millions and millions more. And so what I realiz is like, oh, if I like want to get to

somebody and I just say if I like DM them, there's highly likely I could just start with the people that follow me on Twitter. It turns out like almost all

Twitter. It turns out like almost all the top founders do.

>> And so one way to do this is like you can obviously go through their their PR, their coms people, which Rob's an expert at. But I've just like

at. But I've just like like I know somebody who knows them and I'm like, "Hey, can you just ask that guy if he like knows who I am and tell them I want to talk?" And so far I've done this I don't know like six times and these are like public company CEOs

too. It's like turns out every single

too. It's like turns out every single time they're like a fan of the podcast.

Um and so it's just frequency. It's like

realizing that was the biggest mistake we made was moving way too slow on the queue. It's like let's record one person

queue. It's like let's record one person and then we'll move on to the next person.

be talking to like 50 people at a time and then I'm ready to go whenever I have an ide in many cases >> like we've had to reschedu three, four, five times like stuff just always comes

on. So yeah, I think the biggest thing I

on. So yeah, I think the biggest thing I have to to take care of next year is just vastly increasing like the top of the funnel to make sure that I have the people I want. Second thing, they're not

all going to be old. [laughter] Okay.

Geriatric.

Uh, two, they're not all going to be billionaires. Like I don't there there's

billionaires. Like I don't there there's a multi-billionaire right now that has asked to get on the podcast and I started researching a guy. I thought he was a little creepy and I said no. So

it's like I'm not just I'm not impressed just because you have a lot of money. I

again if you go back to what we said at the beginning of the conversation, founders are the books that I'm intensely interested in reading and sometimes they're deviate. They're not

founders at all. like I did this episode on Herukqi Makami or a bunch on Winston Churchill or like there's lessons we can take away from them but they're not the typical founder. I was just super

typical founder. I was just super interested in reading about them. Turns

out if I'm interested the audience is too and then the new show is just who I'm intensely interested in speaking to.

And yeah, in many cases they're going to be doing what they've been doing for a long time. That doesn't automatically

long time. That doesn't automatically make them old, but I am interested in like people that have a singular career.

And if they don't haven't developed a singular career yet, they just there's something about them that is very unique to them. I that I'm interested in

to them. I that I'm interested in talking to them. So it's just like not a net worth thing, not even a how long I've been doing. I originally thought, okay, maybe I'll talk to you should be

doing it at least like 10 years. And I

think most of the people I will talk to have been doing it for at least 10 years because again, I'm not into startups.

I'm into building a durable business.

>> Creating a startup, raising a bunch of money, and going out of business is not an accomplishment. And that is the vast

an accomplishment. And that is the vast majority of these people like go back. I

used to take notes on all the podcasts I listen to and I had like this huge uh started as an Evernote uh notebook then it was a Substack and you go back and just go back and pick all the same

startup there's a lot of the same startup podcast 2020 2021 2022 make a list of the guests and this is how I realized I was wasting my goddamn time.

Um make a list of the guests and then see how many are still in business. It

was shocking. They're all gone. I'm not

interested in hearing some startup founder espouse how great they are when they're already dead and they don't even know it. So, I do think keeping some

know it. So, I do think keeping some kind of time as a filter I'm going to do, but it just come down to like I find this person interesting or I I want to know how that person thinks >> and I think we could have a a very very

interesting conversation. But no, there

interesting conversation. But no, there there there will be several guests under 50.

>> Okay. Well, something that's worked for me is making the sorcery top 100 list.

It's not top and it was not ordered in any particular >> I know me and you both know it wasn't in the right order.

>> Why?

>> 66.

We that you put me as s What What did you What was the title? Top 100

>> sund guest list. Something like that.

guest list. Something like that.

>> Top guests you want lists. Yeah, it was really it took me like, you know, I re originally it was like 50 people and then I was like, "Oh, no.

This one."

>> So, I wasn't even going to be on the list if I'm 66. [laughter]

>> You had to add to You had to add another hundred or another 50.

>> Yeah, maybe. I think so.

>> Okay. Well, [laughter] you know, you and I both know that is not true.

>> You had to add two more on top of that because I completely forgot.

Never mind. But anyways.

>> Okay. Okay. So, first of all, do I want to clarify the record? That was a lie.

You know that you and I both know I'm not six the top 66. I

>> Well, you made you You're not top 60.

You have made it within the top 10 by the way of that list.

>> I will accept one B to Ivanka Trump's 1A.

>> That's Alex Karp. So,

>> okay. Okay. Okay. I will

>> You can be 1 C.

>> No, I will accept two.

>> Two >> to Ivanka's 1A. That's

>> carp 1B.

>> Elon Musk.

>> It doesn't matter. So then I'm 2B. I

don't care. I'm not going lower than 2B.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. And honestly, the only one only the carp thing is just because I I do think your episode with him was really excellent. But I I I

excellent. But I I I >> credible. Yeah.

>> credible. Yeah.

>> I retract my statement.

>> I'm one B behind Ivanka.

>> What?

>> Ivanka is the only one I'm taking a backseat to.

>> Ivanka's good.

>> She's the best.

>> She's really good.

>> She is one of the sweetest people I know. One of my favorite people by far.

know. One of my favorite people by far.

Unbelievably well read.

>> Yeah.

>> Like a kind soul. Um she's legitimately one of my favorite people I get to spend time with. She's she's incredible. She's

time with. She's she's incredible. She's

going to do the new show, too.

>> Can you put in a good word? [laughter]

We'll see how the rest of this interview goes.

>> Oh god. Okay.

Anyways, on that subject, >> were you going somewhere with the top 100 lists or were you done there? No,

no, that I mean that was I was just a suggestion.

>> What I told you when I saw that list is really excellent advice that I got from Daniel Ek which was he's like you're really easy to understand. He was

talking to me. It's like you're really easy to understand so therefore you're really easy to help.

>> And I think one of the smartest things you did was making yourself very easy like you're very legible online >> where it's like I'm going to organize this list. I'm going to publish it on my

this list. I'm going to publish it on my Twitter feed and immediately you book carpet what seven days later?

>> No, less than three. Like I got a call that day like, "Hey, I think we got something." And then by the third day it

something." And then by the third day it was scheduled.

>> So there you go.

>> Insane.

>> I think if you can do more of those things to make you easy to understand and therefore easy to help is like really smart.

>> Yeah. The the the tricky thing with that though is doing it in a tasteful way.

I'm not exploitive.

>> How would it be exploitive? Well, I just I also to drive off of serendipity a bit actually building relationships with people and going the warm connection way. I'm like over capacity right now.

way. I'm like over capacity right now.

Even with the Anderl episode, that was [ __ ] awesome. I thought I was just going to interview one of them. I heard

back and no, all four founders are going to be in town on Monday. you're going to do an episode with. I'm like, in what capacity has anybody interviewed all four founders and gotten a tour and a

role? Like, it's insane. And like Palmer

role? Like, it's insane. And like Palmer was on my list. Trac was on my list twice.

>> Oh, there you go.

>> I didn't mean to. I meant I totally meant that. Uh, but yeah, I was

meant that. Uh, but yeah, I was >> the universe helping you.

>> The universe helping me, but yeah, I um I'm like over capacity for for a bit, which is like fantastic. And so I'm just going to be at the whims of uh >> What does over capacity mean? Just

because you've recorded so many episodes.

>> I have so many in the back and so many in the backlog. I like I'm running through editors. I'm burning them out

through editors. I'm burning them out [laughter] and like it's just >> Wait, how are you burning out your editors? Are you like hard taskmaster?

editors? Are you like hard taskmaster?

>> I don't know. Am I Brett? [laughter]

>> No comment. Hit the button.

One of the things I like to talk about, so one of our sponsors is Brex and they're all about performance, spending smarter, moving faster, Intelligent AF

Finance. You've probably heard of them.

Finance. You've probably heard of them.

They're very very popular.

>> They've definitely heard of me.

>> Um, [laughter] and so one of on on the topic of performance, I think a lot of performance comes down to like who you surround yourself with. you're you think very crit critically of this and so I'd

be curious of your answer, but I think it it comes down to who you surround yourself with, who you admire most, and like who's a mentor to you. So, I'm

curious for you like who are those people for you?

>> I think that your entire life is who you surround yourself with is by far not only from like Okay, so the the the people the first people you recruit are obviously like who your company turns out to be. So that's why there's a great book called in the company of giants

which is published in 1987 by two Stanford MBA students and they wind up as a result they just happen to be in Silicon Valley at the time during this huge you know the first internet boom and they interview 16 technology company

founders also interesting to see how many of those technology company founders wind up disappearing okay this whole theme of like trying to dominate for decades but one of them you know they got Michael Dell's in there Bill Gates is in there but Steve Jobs is in

there and you know being NBA students they didn't know any better like hey Steve, like you're running your company, so obviously like you don't have any time to recruit now. And he's like, what? He's like, are you crazy? It's the

what? He's like, are you crazy? It's the

most important thing that I do. And he

gave this great and he's like, it's very important at the very very beginning of your company, but it continues to be important. So he's like, when you're

important. So he's like, when you're picking your co-founder, it's like you should choose wisely. Why? Because it's

50% of your company at the time. And

then employee number 10, still super important. It's 10% of your company. And

important. It's 10% of your company. And

so there's a great line where Steve would say that the person he learned more from management than anybody else was Ed Catill, the founder of Pixar.

>> And Ed Catmill talks about this like he would go around giving talks. He's like,

"Hey, what's more important? People are

ideas." And he said, "People always got this question wrong. It's so weird to me." He's like, they said, "Ideas are

me." He's like, they said, "Ideas are more important." He's like, "No, it's

more important." He's like, "No, it's obviously people." Because ideas come

obviously people." Because ideas come from people. And so he has this great

from people. And so he has this great line to illustrate this. He's like,

"Hey, if you give a mediocre idea, if you give a great idea to a mediocre team, they'll screw it up. But if you give a mediocre idea to a great team, they'll either fix it or they'll throw it out and come up with something new.

And Brad Jacobs, you'll just see this over and over again. It's like the quality of people around you is your entire life. The best piece of advice

entire life. The best piece of advice that I was ever given came from, one of the best piece of advice I ever was given came from Jared Kushner, uh, who's a good friend. I actually talked to him

like a few hours ago. And this is also what I I've told you one of the first times we talked >> that that's Ivanka's husband, right?

>> That is correct.

>> Okay.

>> Is constant refinement of association.

And Jared's one of these people where it's like he will tell you the truth. If

he likes you, well, first of all, he wouldn't spend time with you if he doesn't like you. But like he he says stuff to me that if people hear that, they're like, damn. Like that might even be rude. It's like, no, no. like he's a

be rude. It's like, no, no. like he's a very direct person, but he's saying that because he wants I know he wants like my best interest and like he wants me to do well and he's he said he's like benefited hugely from uh from your

podcast. So like his whole thing is like

podcast. So like his whole thing is like he's seen me in environments where he's like these people are not good enough for you.

>> Mhm.

>> He's just like you're like you have built one of this is what he told me.

He's like I know all the elite people in the world. They all listen to your

the world. They all listen to your podcast and he he's like pushed me on a lot of different things and in a very like direct but like truthful manner and I think it's really really important.

And so the other day, I'll tell you one of like my close friends and mentors because really I don't really have a mentor. I guess Hinky would be the

mentor. I guess Hinky would be the closest, but like it's more like a coach and just like my very close friends that are like the people that I actually pay attention to and like I'm pretty ruthless with getting access like I'm

you I'm not on the scene. You you can't access me. You can't just like call me

access me. You can't just like call me up or get in touch with me or anything like that. like I am deliberately like

like that. like I am deliberately like evasive when it comes to that because I don't I already have as many friends I can handle and I'm sure because of our jobs you you're going to meet interesting people and I might be able

to add one great friend that's going to every year or two or something like that but it's like even if I added none I'd be fine and so one of my closest friends

is you know legit genius um I won't say his name he doesn't like to be talked about publicly you'll find nothing about him online but everybody that needs to know in tech knows who he is and he's

highly highly respected and we were on the phone the other day and this is again somebody I know has my best interest and like we have a legitimate friendship and he knew that I was about

to spend time or that I was spending time with another somewhat high-profile person and he's just like all I want you to consider and again like they're not

no one's like you need to do XYZ they talk in stories or you have to kind of read between the lines. And so he's like, I would just consider like why

that guy like leaves like a trail of like chaos and discontent and broken relationships everywhere he goes. Like

why is his co-founders of his first company hate him? Why co-founders of this company hate him? Like why is this person saying these things about him?

And he's like you should just see like who he has around him that's been around him for a long time that talks positively positively around him. and

they're both super successful financially, but my friend has all these wonderful relationships and people who do almost anything for him and I'm

probably one of them. And this guy doesn't. And his whole point was just

doesn't. And his whole point was just like, man, we're doing this. They're

both billionaires. He's just like, "We're doing this." It's like, cuz we like the game and it's fun and like we love it. But at the end, like he said

love it. But at the end, like he said this line that was great. He's like,

"But your life is your relationships."

He's like, "This guy doesn't have any."

Like, what does that tell you? It

doesn't matter how much money he has.

And I've met some super successful people. It's like, "Where are your

people. It's like, "Where are your friends, dude? Like, where are your

friends, dude? Like, where are your friends?" It's like unbelievably sad.

friends?" It's like unbelievably sad.

So, I I think part of it is just because we are mimedic by nature. Like, you are going to pick up on the habits of your friends that are around you. And you

have to be very so many. No one does this by the way. 99% of humans do not.

They're they they give shitty people access to them. When I think of like if I could only have one mentor that was dead, it'd be Charlie Mer who I was good enough to incredible. I got to go to his

house and have dinner with him for three hours before he died. And his line on this is like the advice that he gave I was there with two other entrepreneurs and his whole thing is like most people are rat poison. Charlie had no filter.

Like he's like most of humanity, you know, they they're they're not high quality people and you should avoid them. So the main piece of advice that

them. So the main piece of advice that he gave us was I I would I would um I I I I distilled

it into this maxim go for great because his whole thing was like hey your job right now is very obvious. You need to build build a seamless web of deserved trust with really high quality people

and talk to nobody else. He goes

everybody knows that I was 35 when I met Buffett and Buffett was 28. What they

didn't know is that there was a bunch of other of our friends and guys around us.

We built a seamless deserve trust and we did deals together for decades. And he's

like at that time he's like most of them are dead, you know, cuz Charlie's 99. I

think Buffett was like 92 or 91 91 at that point. And so he's the go for great

that point. And so he's the go for great thing was problems are inevitable. Okay,

you live long enough, bad [ __ ] is going to happen to you. That's a direct quote from from Charlie. So he's like your job in life is to get he goes is to uh build

relationship with great people. He says

wisdom is prevention. Right? Great

people don't solve problems, they avoid them. High quality people and you I've

them. High quality people and you I've see this in my life. They avoid them.

Most of them wisdom is prevention. It's

one of the best maxims. So high quality build relationship with high quality people and then get into a good business and stay there. He was very adamant about that other part. Stay in the good business. Stop jumping around. He goes,

business. Stop jumping around. He goes,

"If you surround yourself with high quality people and you good businesses obviously they have way fewer problems than bad businesses or great businesses rather. Uh great businesses have very uh

rather. Uh great businesses have very uh a lot less problems." So he's like your job is like if you get surround yourself with great people and you get in a great business stay there. He's like that that avoids most of the problems you're going

to have in life. And like that is your job. Go for great. Surround yourself

job. Go for great. Surround yourself

with great people and just be in one great business is all you need to build wealth for generations. Um, and so I I think about that like all the time where I do think I already am in a great

business. I will continue to like build

business. I will continue to like build this into a great business. I think that the one of the best things to launch off media is more media. Um, like I just did

with launching the new show off of off of founders and then just being insanely having insanely high bar for for who I spend time with. Um, but I would say

like most of them they're not even like [snorts] like I I could name names mo people most people wouldn't even like really like know who they are. They're

just like really good high quality smart good people that that have some kind of body of work that they can point to and that's how we became friends to begin with.

>> It's a good answer.

>> Maybe I picked the right profession.

>> I don't know. We'll we'll follow up on that uh in three more months. You'll be

six months into this new job.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

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>> As we enter 2026 and we leave 2025 first, how would you define 2025 for you?

>> Best year of my life.

>> Why?

>> I just cannot believe like first of all the the thing about podcasts again I know we keep going back to this this topic. [clears throat and cough]

topic. [clears throat and cough] What what a lot of people don't understand about podcasts is they're unique experience generators. And so the amount of things that I was able to do, the people I was able to meet this year,

the the places I went, the amount of activities that I got to do, it's like you couldn't buy access to them. There's

no tickets. There's nothing. It's like

you you were you had to be invited into this by really high quality people because they respect you and they respect like your body of work. And so

just I I don't look back a lot. In fact,

I just had lunch with a friend of mine in New York and that's exactly what she told me. She's just like, "You don't

told me. She's just like, "You don't seem to like take inventory of like your life or how unusual it is because it's just like, oh, I did that next podcast."

And I do think there's value to just focusing on today and then doing the same trying to like push the ball forward or lay bricks the next day. But

I probably should get better at, you know, at least like documenting like go back in my camera roll. I'm like, "Oh my god, I forgot I did that." So I I definitely need to get better at that.

like the the the relationships I built, the experiences I got to have, and then just founders just absolutely it was already crazy last year, but it's like just absolutely ripped. And then the new

show, like I could not have we we literally couldn't have had a better start than what uh we did. And then you know some of the stuff because we go back and forth on podcasts but like I

can't name like some of the people I got to spend literally like there's like three people in the world my top three list and I got to spend one-on-one time with all three of them this year and only one I've recorded a podcast with so

far and it's just like how did this happen? Like sometimes I'm sitting there

happen? Like sometimes I'm sitting there I'm like who is this person sitting ac like this is insane. and then for them all to be in many cases fans of what I'm doing. It's like you didn't even know I

doing. It's like you didn't even know I had a top three list. How is that possible? And to to spend time with them

possible? And to to spend time with them and to learn from them. It's just been absolutely crazy. And then I really do

absolutely crazy. And then I really do like think I I just I'm so glad I made the decision. It's like, hey, this is a

the decision. It's like, hey, this is a year I'm going to pull the trigger and I'm going to do this new show. And we

started recording in May, launched in September. And uh I think it was one of

September. And uh I think it was one of the I think it'll go back and be one of the best decisions I ever made in my life. If you could define 2026 in one

life. If you could define 2026 in one word, what would you want the word to be?

>> It can't be one word, but I am very interested in seeing how far I can take this. And I as just said, I spent a

this. And I as just said, I spent a bunch of days with six of the biggest podcasters in the world. I was talking to Patrick on the the um the drive over

here and his whole thing was like, I'm so glad that you do what you do in the sense that you go around, you like collect all this information, you just such you don't think about anything about podcasting. And he's like, because

about podcasting. And he's like, because I'm not interested in it at all. I like

one podcaster. He's like, I like you.

He's like, I don't actually like podcasters is what he was telling me.

And he's like, and if you weren't doing what you're doing, I'd feel like FOMO.

Like like I what's going on in the world where I could just like call you and you could just like data dump on like what's going on with me? And I I text this is like two Saturdays morning. It was like 7:00 in the morning and I text uh two

members on the of the team of the new podcast. And I was just like, we're

podcast. And I was just like, we're going to like take this as far as it goes. Like I don't know where we can go.

goes. Like I don't know where we can go.

I just know no one else is going to take it farther than us. And so the way I would describe is like I don't want to get to the and definitely not at the end of my life, but certainly not the end of

next year with without knowing like I want to push it to the limit. And I

don't mean to break. I don't mean to like I mean like I want to see what I'm actually capable of. And I think that's the biggest thing where like I don't have any doubt that I found my life's work. I know that for sure. So, I don't

work. I know that for sure. So, I don't have to take there's no introspection there like like but I want to do this as best as I possibly can to the point

where like I didn't leave anything whereas like or I didn't like halfass it or yeah I just I I want to push it to the limit. Me and John and Jordy text

the limit. Me and John and Jordy text screenshots of that song um push it to the limit from the Scarface. Uh it was in their launch video. Remember when

they did the helicopter and everything?

Push it to the limit. that song. Um, and

I think that is just we just texted back and forth because it's like that is just the anthem. I think they're like if you

the anthem. I think they're like if you saw the interview they just did like they're very much in line with this uh as well. It's just like let me see how

as well. It's just like let me see how far I can take this. I'm very interested and I really hope uh yeah, I just want

to avoid anything that doesn't allow me to do that. Um that that would be like push to the limit would be my answer.

What would you hope the biggest takeaway from your listeners would be with this new show?

>> I think really man like just I I think a lot of the media that entrepreneurs are consuming is just like it's goes against their incentives. There's this really

their incentives. There's this really really well-known um founder.

[clears throat] So there's a there's a bunch of people that don't do really do many podcasts that I've been trying to convince to do podcasts and that is really hard. Um,

and I had dinner with one by far the most intense person I' ever been around and I was like, man, he's got all this stuff like in the dinner. Like, you just couldn't believe the stories he has.

Like the the the company building knowledge that's in his head that he just doesn't share with anybody. It's

insane to me. And I was trying to be like, "Hey, this is an act of service for the next generations of founders." I

go, "Dude, they're all listening. All

the content that entrepreneurs are listening to are made by VCs." And he interrupted me. He goes, "Real

interrupted me. He goes, "Real entrepreneurs don't listen to VCs."

[laughter] And so >> is this Travis Kalanick?

>> I I don't know who it is. So the um but the the I guess the important part is like I want to offer like an alternative

to start scale sell because I've talked to so many founders that started that scaled that sold and are unbelievably depressed or unhappy or realizing that

was my best idea. I'll never have an idea that that's good. I have three and a half decades of life, four decades of life ahead of me.

>> Yeah.

>> And I can't take that back. It's like,

man, you're gonna get the money anyways or there's other ways to do what you want to do. Like, just don't give up.

So, like I again, I think the alternative is like, can I present an alternative path where it's like more like Michael Dell, this is an infinite

game. This is a giant puzzle. You can

game. This is a giant puzzle. You can

constantly reinvent yourself and reinvent your company over and over and over again. And you're gonna be so much

over again. And you're gonna be so much more satisfied when you're 60 or 70 than you did that you made a hundred million dollars when you're 35 or whatever the case is. It's like a lot of people have

case is. It's like a lot of people have money. Like it may be a small percentage

money. Like it may be a small percentage of the population, but a lot of people are rich. How many people can say they

are rich. How many people can say they tr built something that's truly great. A

much smaller percentage of the population. That's what you want. You I

population. That's what you want. You I

think Jeff Bezos said it the best. He's

like, you want to build a body of work and a company that you're proud to tell your grandchildren about. and your

grandchildren are not going to care that grandpa 40 years ago sold a company and now just sits in a rocking chair and does nothing. Grandpa probably won't

does nothing. Grandpa probably won't even live because retirement is fatal.

Like you need to do something. Um so

yeah, I think the alternative is just like hey why don't we like try to build durable companies and like stick with them and like do it forever. Like what

else are we going to do?

>> It's funny you mentioned Michael Dell.

The first thing I thought of was the past couple conversations I've had with Zach and the fact that they're literally setting out to build a multigenerational company. Same thing.

company. Same thing.

>> Yeah. I wonder where he got that.

>> I can't imagine. I don't know. I should

ask.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Okay, David. Well, thank you. This

was awesome.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> Cool.

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